Larry King Live Show Transcripts

Encore: Death of A Legend

Aired July 19, 2009 - 21:00 ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


LARRY KING, HOST: Tonight, a prime time exclusive -- go inside the gates of Neverland. See where Michael Jackson lived and danced, raised his children. His brother Jermaine and long time friends tell us about Michael before the money problems, the marriages and scandals.

And now, ex-wife Debbie Rowe may fight for the kids Michael wanted his mom to raise.

Will she win?

Plus, one of Michael's final rehearsals caught on tape -- you're looking at Michael two days before he died. Just released footage reveals an active, energetic superstar in the very arena that will host his memorial service.

All next on a very special edition of LARRY KING LIVE on location from Neverland.

Good evening on a spectacularly beautiful night in Northern Central California.

We're at the Neverland Valley Ranch, formerly known, by the way, as the Sycamore Valley Ranch. It covers 2,800 acres. It's located in Santa Barbara County. It's about 150 miles northwest of Los Angeles.

Michael purchased this property from William Bone in 1988, renamed it -- renamed it Neverland after the fantasy isle, of course, in "Peter Pan."

We're going to see lots of it tonight, as this is a prime time exclusive for LARRY KING LIVE.

As well as it us with Jermaine Jackson, one of Michael's older brothers, a former member over The Jackson 5. Indeed, Jermaine sang the co-lead with Michael for a number of years.

Before we talk about this incredible place, first, thank you for coming.

JERMAINE JACKSON, MICHAEL'S BARACK OBAMA: Thank you.

KING: Thank you for flying up with me. You were a nice companion.

JACKSON: Thank you. KING: We've seen this all day and all yesterday, but Jermaine has not. So we want you to look at this tape of your late brother in his last rehearsal 48 hours before he died.

Watch.

(VIDEO CLIP)

KING: All right. How does that make you feel?

JACKSON: Wow! He looks great -- strong very, very strong.

KING: When you saw reports of him looking bad, he looks -- he don't look bad to me.

JACKSON: No. He looks incredible. I mean he was going to put it on them -- a very strong man.

KING: So how does it hit you now, Jermaine?

JACKSON: It hits me very, very deep. I'm very deep in shock. I'm very hurting. I'm paining. The world is paining. My family is paining, because he's gone too soon, too soon.

KING: What's it like to be here?

JACKSON: It's wonderful to be here because...

KING: Explain.

JACKSON: This is his creation. This is his -- like I say, this is the ultimate serenity at its highest level. This is his wonder and his joy, his happiness, his peace. And I feel him everywhere. I feel him all around here. It's like he's never left.

KING: The thing that hit me the most -- and I guess others may have told you this -- is that I expected to see some kind of, for want to be a better term, honky-tonkish atmosphere and this is the opposite.

JACKSON: And tell me, what do you think, since you first came in?

KING: This is beauty, serenity, calmness. I don't feel like wearing a tie. This is just relaxing. We're looking at the water. We're going to take a walk later over to the tree where -- I -- I can't -- I'm totally taken aback by it, in a -- in a plus way.

JACKSON: OK. Now tell me this, with all the negative things that they tried to say -- that they said about this place -- do you feel that it's -- it was representative of what you said?

KING: If there was negativity, I don't see it here now.

JACKSON: Thank you.

KING: This is -- no, this is really a beautiful, beautiful place.

Let's talk about -- how did you -- how did you find out your brother died?

JACKSON: I was on the other side of town in Azusa. And I got a call from you guys on my wife's phone.

KING: CNN?

JACKSON: Yes. And they said, did you know that your brother was rushed to the hospital?

And I said, what?

So I called my mother immediately. And I got her on the phone and she said she was on her way. And so a little time went by and I spoke to Janet and I spoke to a few of the siblings. And then I -- about 45 minutes later. And then I called my mother back. And I hear this sound in her voice that's saying that he's dead. And just the feeling of emptiness came before my body, because to hear my mother say her child is dead and my brother is dead is -- I never ever thought that I would ever hear this from her lips.

KING: Did you go right over to the hospital?

JACKSON: Immediately, Larry. I had to go a different route. And once I got closer to where he was, I could see the helicopters in the sky. And that really brought just a chill over my whole body.

Once I entered into UCLA, I went straight for my mother to see how she was. And she was sitting there. And I guess she was there, but she wasn't there. And I consoled her and hugged her. And I -- and I went to see my baby, Michael. I went to look for him. And I...

KING: Where did you see him?

JACKSON: I saw him laying in the room. And he was lifeless, breathless. And he just -- as if it was a shell and his -- he was just there.

KING: What do -- what -- what do you do at a moment like that?

What do -- do you say something?

What do you do?

JACKSON: I said, Michael, why did you go?

Why did you leave?

Why did you leave me?

I -- what was going through my mind, Larry, I wish it was me there instead of him.

KING: Really? JACKSON: Yes. Because I loved Michael so much. It's a different love. All my family and siblings, the world loves him. But I just felt a special connection with him because just going back over memories how my father used to keep us in the same rooms, because we were on tour, so we were the lead singers and just memories all came back to me -- everything. Everything.

KING: Do you keep -- are you wondering why it happened, how it happened?

JACKSON: I was most concerned about that. But I was also concerned about the fact that he wasn't here anymore.

What was I going to do, because I felt like a -- a major part of me just disappeared.

KING: So you say coming back here is OK for you -- not hard for you?

JACKSON: Not at all, Larry, because this is his creation. This is his joy. This is his fantasy land, whatever he called it. But it's Neverland. This is the ultimate happiness. So...

KING: How -- how are your children taking it?

They were very close to him.

JACKSON: Yes. Well, they -- it's unreal. The children, they loved Uncle Michael and they -- all -- all the siblings just felt that, you know, because he played with them. He would come over and play hide and seek in the house and we would -- because we grew up doing this -- doing these things.

KING: And he was always a man child, wasn't he, I understand?

JACKSON: Yes. I am the same way. And there were -- there were things about that...

KING: How are his kids?

JACKSON: His kids are strong. They -- they have a lot of love and care. And they're playing with my kids. And they're just being strong. But they're -- they're -- it's what it is, Larry.

KING: More from beautiful Neverland -- Never, Neverland with this -- I call it Never, Neverland because when you come here, you call it Never, Never, Neverland.

JACKSON: You never want to leave.

KING: You're not kidding.

We'll be right back.

(MUSIC)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(MUSIC)

KING: Have to talk over them?

We're at the Neverland Ranch, north of Santa Barbara, the home of -- hard to say, the late Michael Jackson.

This is an exclusive prime time special for LARRY KING LIVE on CNN.

And we're spending time with Jermaine Jackson.

We'll check in with Ted Rowlands in a moment.

One thing about Katherine, your mother.

Do you think it's proper that she be responsible for the kids?

JACKSON: Yes. I think it's very proper, because the way my mother raised us, the way we know how she's very -- just the love, the joy and making sure that they'll be OK. I thought it was the right choice, clearly.

KING: Age any hindrance -- her age?

JACKSON: No. No, because she has a staff and she's always with all of our kids. There's 23 grandchildren (INAUDIBLE)...

KING: What do you make of the ex-wife possibly seeking custody?

JACKSON: We'll see. Larry, the will is what it is. And the will was really written well. And it was executed by the executors. And they did a great job. It's what it is.

KING: So you don't think she has a shot?

JACKSON: Well, no, no because this is what Michael wanted. If we're looking at Michael and this is all about Michael, this is what he wanted.

KING: Michael had a great friend in Miko Brando. Michael was best man at Miko's wedding, which took place right here.

And Ted Rowlands is with Miko somewhere on the grounds -- Ted.

TED ROWLANDS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Larry, we're at the train station, one of the most memorable images of Neverland Ranch. If you've seen video out of here, you see it's the -- it's sort of like the Disneyland train station in that they have the flowers and the clock. It is really a gorgeous part of the Neverland Ranch compound.

And, Miko, you've spent a lot of time up here. This place is so big that, obviously, this isn't just for decoration. This train station was a real train station with a real train. MIKE BRANDO, MICHAEL JACKSON'S FRIEND: A real train, steam -- steam engine train -- a large one. He had used it for years to get from -- from the residence up to the theater and the zoo.

ROWLANDS: Which is about a quarter of a mile away.

Above this fireplace, Miko -- Miko, was a tribute to Katherine.

BRANDO: There was a plaque there that he had made for his mother because he named the train after his mother, the Katherine.

ROWLANDS: So the train was actually called Katherine?

BRANDO: Yes.

ROWLANDS: The -- a lot of people would come up here just to hang out, you were telling me earlier, because, of course, there were -- as there around the entire compound...

BRANDO: Before you'd reach the train, you'd stop here and have your cappuccino, if you want; ice cream; candy; candy apples -- all the candy you could think of -- before you'd ride a train over to the theater.

ROWLANDS: And here, people would hang out and sit here and watch these monitors. Larry, they would have -- basically Michael would put on videos on each of the monitors.

BRANDO: Right.

ROWLANDS: You could say video.

BRANDO: He'd put videos and part twos. Whoever wanted could sit here and watch them on all these screens. You'd sit here and eat your candy, eat your -- well, all those sweets you'd want. And the kids would just hang out here and watch the videos all night long.

ROWLANDS: And this is just a minuscule part, obviously of the compound here -- one small portion of it where people would come and hang out. The outside, here's where the train would come through, Miko. And the marks, you say, sort of show how much it was used, huh?

BRANDO: Correct. That shows you how much steam went through underneath there. And every time you'd, you know, blow the whistle, that would, you know, that would have the effect on the -- on the brick like that.

ROWLANDS: And you say Michael used to do this (INAUDIBLE)...

BRANDO: He'd blow the whistle, you know, right there and make it loud. You could hear it over the whole valley. You could hear it over the whole property. Once that whistle went, you knew the train was here.

ROWLANDS: For you, coming back here, what are you feeling?

BRANDO: Numb. Numb. I wish he was here and I wish that he -- you know, just -- yes, numb.

ROWLANDS: All right.

All right, Larry. This is the train station. We'll be here for the hour showing you much more of Neverland Ranch. Larry?

KING: Thank you.

Thank you, Miko.

Thank you, Ted.

Did you ride that train a lot?

JACKSON: Many times. Many times. It was -- it left from the train station to go to the -- to the theater, down to the theme park.

KING: Was this things that Michael probably dreamed about as a child?

JACKSON: This is what he was about -- just the joy. He started out as a young kid on stage and never having a childhood. And this is -- this was the -- the ultimate playground.

KING: This was the childhood relived?

JACKSON: Yes, exactly. We would come here and relive our dreams. And our kids would come on parties and birthdays and just -- you never wanted to leave.

KING: And some beautiful statuary. And, remember, they're only using 37 acres out of almost 3,000.

When we come back, you're going to see part of those 3,000 acres.

Wait until you see what's coming.

Don't go away.

(MUSIC)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: A little while ago, Jermaine and I took a little ride up to the gazebo. You couldn't have walked it, because this is a big place.

Watch.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KING: Hi, Jermaine.

We needed to say this is unbelievable.

Where are we? JACKSON: We're at the -- we're looking over Neverland. This is what he considered as the ultimate joy, the ultimate happiness, the ultimate wonderment, the ultimate peace. This is Neverland. This has (INAUDIBLE)...

KING: And this is one small part of this whole picture, right?

JACKSON: Yes, this is one small part. There's so much more. There are other valleys beyond these hills that are just -- are just flat surfaces. There's Mount Katherine around here that he named...

KING: That's named for your mother?

JACKSON: ...after my mother.

KING: Is that it up there?

JACKSON: Yes, it's -- it's the part that's shaved off there, Mount Katherine. And there is -- it -- it's just a place where we would come with all the children and there would be birthdays and fun. And then the times that we wanted to get out here, it was booked for just bus loads of just kids who were dying of this and that and the less fortunate, in wheelchairs.

And the theme park was this way -- beyond that way. And its wheelchair ramps and just gives kids that happiness. That's what it was.

KING: A lot of underprivileged and poor kids, right?

JACKSON: Underprivileged, poor. And they would have a wonderful time.

KING: Now, what's that way?

JACKSON: That way is just where we used to take the quads (ph) and go around and act crazy and ride -- and ride horses and stuff. And there's just so much land to still develop. But here is where he considered his happiness. And this is what he felt that was -- his joy.

KING: Did he see this first?

How did he pick this place?

JACKSON: Well, I understand when they did the video, "Say, Say, Say," my sister La Toya was here and Paul McCartney and Michael. And he really liked it.

But see, to -- to back up before that, I had a ranch in Hidden Valley. And Michael would come over. And he loved what I had out there, because I had swans and everything.

And he said, Jermaine, I'm going to buy a beautiful ranch one day, because he loved the ranch. And this is -- I think that's what inspired him to do this. KING: Did he spend a lot of time here in the heyday?

JACKSON: A lot of time. A lot of time.

KING: I don't think the general public would have any concept -- it's my own feeling -- of what Neverland is. I think their thought would be that it's rides and games and toys.

And there was all that, right?

But this is so much more.

JACKSON: Yes, see, with our family, Larry, we traveled so much. And I can see bits and pieces of different parts of the world here. And that's what's great about this place.

KING: You see Europe here?

JACKSON: Oh, yes. You see Portofino. You see all types of things. And that's what Michael enjoys. And he brought bits and pieces of those different places that he enjoyed into his haven.

KING: All right. Therefore, what is it like for you to stand here now at this place that he loved so much and know he's gone?

JACKSON: Larry, it's so hard. But at the same time, I feel him. I feel his...

KING: You do?

JACKSON: Yes, I feel his presence, because this is his -- this is his creation. This is his ideas. And to come here and to feel him here, I'm happy. And I really felt and still feel that this is where he should be rested, because it's just him. It's so beautiful. Listen. It's serene. It's wonderful.

KING: What do you need, a state thing to change that?

Would they have to...

JACKSON: Larry, anything can be done today. We know this.

KING: The law says you have to be buried in a cemetery, right?

I think that's the law.

JACKSON: Yes, but the people who make the laws, they also...

KING: They can change them.

JACKSON: They can change them.

KING: Well, this is obvious.

JACKSON: Yes.

KING: It would be a magnificent burial places in the world.

JACKSON: It's gorgeous. Well, tell me, did -- what impression you had when you first came?

KING: I couldn't believe it. I could...

JACKSON: Yes.

KING: I don't know what I was expecting...

JACKSON: It's the same impression I had the first time I came. It's the kind of place when it's time to go, you don't want to leave. You want to hide. You want to chain yourself to a tree or something. You don't want to leave, because there's so much joy, so much happiness.

And, Larry, at the same time, to think about that certain people tried to turn this into a negative place -- for him to bring kids here and this and that, for the wrong reason. And that disturbs us the most.

KING: But that hurt him, didn't it?

JACKSON: Oh, it hurt him tremendously. Not only him, our whole entire family, because our kids come out here and they -- there's candy, there is -- there's -- right in that space right there where you see the little kids sitting...

KING: In that circle, yes.

JACKSON: ...sitting on the moon there, that's the grand station for the steam train to go from there to the theater down that way. And he -- he had -- he got the only steam operator in the nation to come here and work this steam train.

KING: This is -- thank you for showing us this.

JACKSON: Thank you.

KING: Because I have never -- I never expected it nor have I ever seen anything quite like it.

JACKSON: Thank you so much, Larry.

KING: Thanks, Jermaine.

JACKSON: It means a lot to all of us, especially me.

KING: Thank you.

JACKSON: Thank you, Larry.

(END VIDEO TAPE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) KING: Well, we have moved from our position back over there to one over here -- a kind of dramatic, beautiful place, but also with a story to tell.

Jermaine, where are we?

JACKSON: Well, we're right as you come in. And this is a very special tree here, because this tree was the tree that he would climb in and think and write songs like...

KING: Write songs?

JACKSON: Yes. "We Are the World," "Dangerous." Just, this was his -- his childhood theme.

KING: So let's walk over here.

JACKSON: He'd climb trees. Yes.

KING: Explain to me what he would do.

He would climb -- he would start from where?

JACKSON: He'd start from here. Right from here, he would climb up here.

KING: Climb up here?

JACKSON: Climb up here.

KING: Go. Don't kill yourself.

JACKSON: Go here. We've got the handles here...

KING: With the handles on the tree.

JACKSON: Yes. And he would go all the way up and find a place to sit, which was right around -- oh, in here. Up there.

KING: Up there?

JACKSON: Right up there. And he would sit there...

KING: Up there?

JACKSON: Yes, up there. And he would sit there and write songs. It's peaceful, Larry.

Do you -- do you hear this?

Let's listen.

KING: Shhhh. OK.

JACKSON: It's wonderful.

KING: It's peaceful but...

JACKSON: Yes.

KING: ...scary.

JACKSON: No, because it's that -- it's that childhood thing. You're never afraid, when you're a child, to -- to do things.

KING: So he'd write...

JACKSON: And that was always in him.

KING: ...the words there, right?

JACKSON: Yes.

KING: He'd have to write words and then write musical notes?

JACKSON: Exactly. Just -- just lyrics and melodies and ideas and stuff.

KING: All right. Let's take "We Are the World."

Would he come down then and sing it to you?

JACKSON: Well, he would come down and take the ideas and go to the studio, implement that and put it on the -- put it into motion.

KING: Did you -- did he ever tell you how he got the idea to write in a tree?

JACKSON: Larry, you can write anywhere. You can write while you're driving. You can write...

KING: I know, but why in a tree?

I know that.

JACKSON: Because, Larry, because you're up high. It's God's creation. It's a tree. It's peaceful. It's green.

KING: It's a tree.

JACKSON: It's -- it's by the fountain. And it's -- it's very peaceful.

KING: It's also one darned beautiful tree.

JACKSON: Yes. It looks like it's hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of years old, an oak tree.

KING: It must be oak.

JACKSON: It's strong.

KING: Yes, beautiful. JACKSON: It's strong.

KING: Hey, this is some place, you know?

I've got to tell you.

Thank you.

KING: I could -- I could live here.

JACKSON: I would love to live here, too.

KING: We'll be right back.

We're going for more.

Don't go away.

(MUSIC)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(MUSIC)

KING: I keep thinking, Jermaine, about double emotions. I mean there's a lot of plus emotions. There's got to be a lot of sad emotions.

JACKSON: It's --

KING: Look at all you shared here.

JACKSON: Yes, but it's -- it's a joy here. And I really feel my mother should come back here and the rest of my brothers and sisters and just feel his presence -- feel what he's created, because it will never leave. It will never die. This is -- he's here.

KING: They have not been here since?

JACKSON: No. Jackie has been here. Tito has been here.

KING: Katherine hasn't? Your dad hasn't?

JACKSON: They're coming, I'm pretty sure.

KING: What can you tell us about the plans for Tuesday?

JACKSON: Well, the plans for Tuesday is fine. We were just delegating certain things to certain family members. But we've always been focused and --

KING: Is it 10:00 a.m. Tuesday morning?

JACKSON: It's 10:00 a.m. Tuesday morning.

KING: Staples Center downtown. JACKSON: Staples center, downtown. Larry, the hardest thing is where do you rest Michael Jackson? Where do you -- it's like everything he did was so over the top, and there are people coming from all over the world in groups of 20s and hundreds of thousands.

KING: How you going to hold -- Staples holds 18,000. Did you ask about Dodger Stadium?

JACKSON: We worked with the city authorities and they're trying their best. And with the time frame we have, we're hoping that everybody is safe and things are going to be locked down pretty much.

KING: And burial now, the California law says you have to bury them in a cemetery, right?

JACKSON: That's pretty much yes. But, as you know, the ones who make the laws can also change them too. I would love to see him here.

KING: Do you have a place for him here?

JACKSON: Yes, there's a special place right over near the train station, right over there.

KING: That we saw before?

JACKSON: Yes. It's hard, Larry, to point where your brother is going to be -- it's tough.

KING: What kind of service will it be?

JACKSON: Larry, we -- we want the world to take part in this event. But, at the same time, we're mourning. We're mourning because this is the most incredible human being there will ever be. And I'll tell you why, because -- I'll quote something to you.

"I'm starting with the man in the mirror. I'm asking him to change his ways. And no message could have been clearer. If you want to make the world a better place, you have to look at yourself to make a change."

I'll say it again, "if you want to make the world a better place, you have to look at yourself and make a change."

When you listen to the content of songs, the melodies, the messages, the videos, the concerts, that's who he was. That's who he is.

KING: How early did you sense that in him?

JACKSON: We were all raised like this, Larry.

KING: Did you know it when he was 12, 13, that he was special?

JACKSON: Yes, because Michael was so young, and he was doing the James Brown -- he could see something and do it. If he wanted to be a tennis player, he would have been a tennis player. If he wanted to be a runner, he would have been. He does everything at the highest level.

He's gifted. And he was a gift from Allah. And I really feel, Larry, his time on this Earth that he was here -- certain people tried to create animosity about him and things that just wasn't important. Look at the man who he is.

KING: Will it be -- well said. Will it be a religious ceremony?

JACKSON: Listen, we were all raised -- we were raised as Jehovah's Witnesses, to tell you the truth.

KING: Uh-huh.

JACKSON: As we started traveling, we started embracing different religions. But the most important thing my mother and father instilled the right morals and principles in us, which is Allah, which is god, Jehovah.

KING: And all-faith, kind of?

JACKSON: I gravitated towards Islam, because I felt it was complete for me.

KING: You don't know what the ceremony will entail?

JACKSON: No, it's going to be -- we want a lot of the industry to be there, as much as possible. But Larry, there's no place even big enough. We talked about the Washington Monument. We talked about the Coliseum. We talked about a lot of places.

Larry, the people, thousands are coming just from the UK. They have 20,000 people --

KING: I've been to Staples. I don't know how they're going to hold it.

JACKSON: I said the same thing. But we have to --

KING: Let me get a break in. Obviously. We'll be right back. Don't go away.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: We at Neverland Ranch. You're looking at the shot, looking right towards the main house. Beautiful place, by the way. Magnificent kitchen here. By the way, Jermaine just told me there will be a private ceremony Tuesday morning, family only.

JACKSON: And some special guests.

KING: And then the 10:00 will be the large memorial service. And there will be many others, right?

JACKSON: Many other -- singers and --

KING: In other parts of the country? JACKSON: Yes, exactly.

KING: So Tuesday is just the start of what will be a series of memorials. Back with more of Jermaine. Now out to Ted Rowlands and Miko Brando. Ted?.

ROWLANDS: Larry, we're in the main house, just inside the main foyer. This is a good indication of what the entire house of 13,000 plus square foot plus house is like, a lot of wood. It just absolutely gorgeous, as you can see.

And Miko, our tour guide here, one of the things you see around here is the Sycamore logo. Michael Jackson bought this pretty much in tact in terms of the main house.

BRANDO: Correct. Yes, this was the logo of the previous owner. It was called the Sycamore Valley Ranch. So all over the property you see these little sycamore trees.

ROWLANDS You say Michael first stayed here when he was working on a video with Paul McCartney. He just came here and was basically put here. And you say he couldn't get it out of his mind.

BRANDO: He stayed here while he was doing the "Say, Say, Say" video. He enjoyed it. He liked it. He wanted to buy the property. He went on tour. And during our tour in '88, the Bad Tour, he had bought the property. He said Miko, I got the ranch.

KING: The ranch. This room is what?

JACKSON: This is the living room. A piano used to be here, with a bunch of photos on the piano. A castle he had built sitting over here, living room chairs, furniture, sofa, the TV on the wall. He had a beautiful marble front here, in front of the fireplace. He had an Oscar standing on the right side of the fireplace.

ROWLANDS: The Oscar from --

BRANDO: From "Gone With the Wind."

ROWLANDS: That he apparently paid one point some million dollars for.

BRANDO: Yes, sir.

ROWLANDS: Prominently displayed when you pay that kind of money. Here we're going into the kitchen, Larry. Miko, you say this was a spot, like any family -- this was the spot where you hung out.

BRANDO: Yes, this was the focal point of the house, I think. We would all meet here. My father would eat here. Michael would eat here. Everyone would meet here. We would watch TV with the fireplace here. Sit here on the bar stool here with a kitchen full of food, video games here on the table. Flat screen TV here on the wall. We had nice furniture. Everything was really warm.

ROWLANDS: So your father, you and Michael used to sit at the table over there for hours.

BRANDO: There was a round table with I think six of eight chairs. We would always have our meals here, most of our meals here, breakfast, lunch and dinner. If we changed it, we would eat somewhere around the property. This was basically where we would all meet and talk about our day here at Neverland.

ROWLANDS: Larry, we'll be back in a bit. Later, looking at Michael Jackson's room and more parts of this fabulous estate.

KING: Thanks, Ted. Before we go to break, what do you make of Diana Sans being named?

JACKSON: Diana Ross?

KING: Diana Ross. I'm sorry, Diana Sans --

JACKSON: I think it's very interesting. There's been a long, close relationship with Michael and Diana for many, many years. And I think it's great.

KING: So she would be a proper person to handle in case something happened to your mother?

JACKSON: I feel it's OK, really. Right now my mother has the children.

KING: Right back with more with Jermaine Jackson and Neverland. Don't go away.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: In case you just joined us or been on another planet, we're going to show you again a portion of that incredible last rehearsal of Michael Jackson. Watch.

(SINGING)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(NEWS BREAK)

KING: A couple more things, Jermaine, on the will. Are you surprised that none of the siblings and your father isn't mentioned?

JACKSON: No, I'm not surprised. What makes me angry, Larry, is the will is exactly Michael's wishes. And they should be carried out exactly the way Michael wanted them. Anybody that tried to contest this will is not following Michael's wishes.

KING: It doesn't bother you that your father wasn't mentioned?

JACKSON: It doesn't bother me, because if my mother's mentioned, my father's fine. I mean, if my mother's fine, we're all fine. But most important, it's not about money, Larry. It's not about property. We're a family. We're a family. We don't let that get in the way. That's not important to us. That's not important.

KING: Did you hear any of the results from any other autopsies? Do you know anything more?

JACKSON: No. When it comes to these things that they're saying -- excuse me, but I'm very uneducated when it comes to drugs and I want to be that way.

KING: But there was a second autopsy. Do you know anything?

JACKSON: No, I don't. But I'm pretty sure there's going to be all kinds of speculations and things being said. But the most important thing is we have to look at who Michael really is.

KING: You've been saying that.

JACKSON: That's so important, because he gave his all to try to change this world and make this world a better place. All this other stuff, it's not important, Larry.

KING: You're doing your best to change that. I have to ask the questions, Jermaine. You've done a fine job here. Thank you. Thanks for being with us. We've got to know. The public is very interested in your brother.

JACKSON: Thank you. Thank you.

KING: Ted Rowlands stands by with more with Miko. Ted?

ROWLANDS: Larry, we're inside Michael Jackson's bedroom suite with Miko Brando, our tour guide. You're looking at the doors. You can see the locks on the doors. Miko, privacy was key in this room, obviously.

BRANDO: Yes, he liked his privacy. When the doors were open, it was OK. But when he locked it, he wanted his privacy. He had his privacy.

ROWLANDS: This is one of the bathrooms. There are two bathrooms in this suite. This is the area that Michael Jackson also slept sometimes. There's a staircase up there, a small bedroom up there. You say he slept on both levels?

BRANDO: He felt whenever he felt like sleeping. He had a choice of two.

ROWLANDS: Let's swing around here. This is a massive bedroom suite. Let's get to all of it. Out here is the view. It's gorgeous. You were married out there. Obviously, it doesn't get much better than that for a view outside your room.

BRANDO: No. He had a great view. There was a gazebo out there by the tree. We got married there. Everyone was out there. It was beautiful. The flowers, the grass, everything was immaculate.

ROWLANDS: When you look at the house now, Miko, it is unfurnished, obviously. Give us a sense of how different it was fully furnished.

BRANDO: It was the place. I've seen a lot of houses in my life, but this was the house.

ROWLANDS: You could see here is the other bathroom and the big tub. Real quickly, before we go, Larry, there's been talk about this closet. It is massive. In the corner of it is a secret compartment or secret little area. Miko, you said this was a safe room just in case.

BRANDO: This was some place in case something ever happened. It would be where he'd go.

ROWLANDS: Thanks, Miko. Larry, back to you.

KING: Thanks, Ted. We have a moment left with Jermaine. You realize, of course, that the public is interested in all these questions. We have had a beautiful day here at Neverland. But there's great interest -- as you expressed it, he changed the world. There's interest in him, his will, how his family's affected. You do understand that, right?

JACKSON: Here's a man who gave his life to humanity. He actually gave his life.

KING: You don't think there's an interest in him?

JACKSON: Yes, there's a tremendous interest around the world. My brother is the king. He's the king. He broken all kinds records, even to this day. The Billboard charts, this and that. All these things are material. We can't take these things with us. All we take is the good deeds that we've done this time that we were on this Earth. I do feel that he was given to us specially, and they've taken him back. Allah has taken him back.

And those who have tried to ridicule him, to make a mockery of him, they realize.

KING: Asking questions about the will isn't ridicule or mocking. It's just --

JACKSON: What I'm saying is if Michael makes a will, no one should contest it. No one.

KING: I got you. OK.

JACKSON: It's what his wishes where.

KING: We're going to do lots more with you.

JACKSON: Thank you.

KING: Jermaine Jackson.

The son of Deepak Chopra is next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: We continue our prime time exclusive at Neverland Ranch with Gotham Chopra, a close friend of Michael Jackson. He worked with Michael on the multi-platinum albums "Dangerous" and "History." Of course, you know his father, Deepak.

This is, obviously, not your first visit here. How does it feel to be here without him?

GOTHAM CHOPRA, MICHAEL JACKSON'S LONG TIME FRIEND: You know, I was not sure how it was going to feel. It kind of feels nice, actually, certainly not without him. But the last few years, Michael had said this had turned into a house for him. It was no longer a home. I do think there is a tranquillity back to it, now that we're celebrating him again. I think you can feel that here.

KING: It's an extraordinary place, isn't it?

CHOPRA: I was interested to get your reaction. I've been here. But --

KING: I'm flabbergasted, in a very positive, beautiful -- isn't serenity a good word?

CHOPRA: Serenity, tranquility. What's missing is the monkeys running around with the trainers. We haven't had a water balloon fight as yet.

KING: Flamingos.

CHOPRA: Flamingos, yes. There's a lot of fun here. You know, certainly, we've come in some sort of mourning but that's what was here before.

KING: Has the loss sunk in, Gotham?

CHOPRA: I don't think so. It's starting to. I was overseas when it first happened. I was shocked, not entirely surprised, frankly, because of knowing Michael and knowing of the things he had talked about. I think I'm starting to feel a little bit more sadness, actually, as time goes by.

KING: When was the last time you saw him?

CHOPRA: I saw him a few months ago. I spoke to him a few weeks ago.

KING: Did he look well?

CHOPRA: To me -- it's subjective -- yes, he looked -- Michael was always -- he was always delicate and small and thin. But he looked no different than he had for years to me.

KING: Did you meet him through your father?

CHOPRA: Originally, yes. I've known him for about 20 years. KING: How old are you?

CHOPRA: I'm 34.

KING: So you were a kid? Did you stay here as a kid.

CHOPRA: The guest house, which is right over there. That was where I stayed the first time I came here with my father. We ate in the main house over there, which is the first time I met Michael. I grew up with Michael Jackson as an idol. I had the silver glove. I bought a red leather jacket, and cut it up so it looked like it was from "Thriller," much to my parents' horror. When I met him, it was like a dream come true.

KING: This is like -- this had to be an adventure for you. You were 14. What was it like?

CHOPRA: It was like walking into a fairy tale, the music, the elegance, fun, the carnival rides. So that first time it was a quick visit just with my father. I subsequently came here through the years, brought my cousins, brought my friends. And Michael just loved having people. He loved playing. It was great here.

KING: Did you ever buy any of the stories, the molestation stories, all that? How did you feel?

CHOPRA: I felt conflicted, obviously. I can only speak to my experience. Like I said, coming here as a 14-year-old for the first time, spending all this time with Michael, and never feeling uncomfortable in his presence.

KING: First time you met him, what was your impression?

CHOPRA: I was in awe, obviously. I was speechless. He immediately put me at ease. The first Batman movie had just -- or was just coming out. He asked me, do you want to see -- he had a movie theater here. He said do you want to go to a private screening, just you, me and my dad? I said, yes, absolutely. So we went and watched. I saw it like a month before it came out. It's amazing.

He immediately put me at ease. I felt comfortable. He felt, in some ways, while he was probably 30 years old at the time -- he felt like a kid himself.

KING: You don't feel sadness here?

CHOPRA: I do. I think --

KING: You feel both, though?

CHOPRA: Yes. I feel both. I mean, look, I think it's great we're celebrating him and everybody who is here feels him here, which is great. It's great to see his family, Jermaine here.

KING: That was part one. There will be part two of young Mr. Chopra, quite a young man, tomorrow night on another edition of LARRY KING LIVE.

We've been at the Neverland Ranch. We've been here all day. We've had quite a night. We'd love to come back again. From the Neverland Ranch, this has been LARRY KING LIVE. Here's Anderson Cooper and "AC 360." Anderson?

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0907/19/lkl.01.html

Interview with Joe Jackson

Aired July 20, 2009 - 21:00 ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


LARRY KING, HOST: Tonight, Joe Jackson exclusive -- live, unedited in his own words. For the first time since his son died, what Joe knows about Michael and drugs; challenges to wife Katherine's guardianship; and the foul play he blames for M.J.'s death.

Who is Joe accusing?

Plus, the never before asked question and answer -- how he said good- bye to his son.

Joe Jackson exclusive is next on LARRY KING LIVE.

Joe Jackson, the patriarch of the Jackson family, is in Las Vegas.

In Atlanta, is Leonard a lot of time, the music and concert promoter and longtime friend of Michael Jackson.

Before we get started, I should say we got a lot of e-mails, blog comments, Kings Things, Tweets, asking if we paid for the interview. And the answer is simple -- no, absolutely not.

Joe, I have -- I have not heard the answer to this -- how did you learn of Michael's passing?

JOE JACKSON, FATHER OF MICHAEL JACKSON: Well, I -- I learned that by some of the fans, you know. They called me and they told me that the ambulance was leaving Michael's house and it looked it was headed toward the hospital. And he said the fire truck was following the ambulance. And they said we are following the fire truck.

That's how I learned.

KING: Wow!

Did you turn the TV on right away?

JACKSON: No, I did not. I was trying to find out more of the things, you know, by the fans and that sort of the thing.

KING: Wow!

So fans were the first to tell you?

JACKSON: Yes, they did. They always keep me abreast of what's going on.

KING: How are -- how are you doing? It's four weeks later.

Is it any easier?

JACKSON: Well, it -- you know, I took it very hard. But, you know, I'm sort of a tough person myself. But I took it very hard, but I didn't let nobody know about it. Yes.

KING: We -- by the way, Leonard will be -- we'll bring Leonard into the conversation shortly.

How is Katherine coping?

JACKSON: Katherine is taking it very, very hard. You know, she's -- she's really, really taking it harder than I have ever seen her take anything. Yes.

KING: Yes.

Were you surprised at all at that?

JACKSON: Yes, of course, I was surprised, because, you know, it's the first time something like this ever happened to us. And -- and the whole world suffered behind Michael's loss, you know -- our loss, I'll put it like that. And we all are grieving about it and still is.

KING: How are the children doing?

JACKSON: Oh, everybody's fine. Thank you. Very fine.

KING: How about Janet Jackson?

You know, where she stood up for the family at the funeral. And I was there at the award -- at the memorial. It was a heartbreaking moment. She seemed rather shaken.

How is she doing now?

JACKSON: Well, she's fine. You know, it happens with, you know, everybody practically I mean. But she's got to keep on doing what she's supposed to do and that's to try to be Janet Jackson. Yes.

KING: Jermaine said in an interview that he wished that he'd been the one to die and not Michael.

As a father, how do you react to that?

JACKSON: Well, I can't. That's Jermaine talking, you know?

And I...

KING: Yes, but how do you feel when you hear it?

JACKSON: Well, because we -- that's what Jermaine thought and maybe that's what his reaction was. But he's living and Michael is dead. And so -- and so that's the way it is. It's not him. KING: Isn't it hard -- isn't it hard to accept?

JACKSON: Accept what, Larry?

KING: That your son is gone?

JACKSON: Oh, of course. It's very hard. It's not just me, it's so hard for the whole family -- and the world, because Michael was -- did so much for the -- for the whole world and which he never was -- he never was -- well, he never -- the people never give him his just due, what the things that -- for all of the things that he has done.

KING: Well, we'll get to some of that.

When little Paris spoke at the end, everyone, of course, was immensely touched and impressed. A lot of people were especially moved.

What do you -- why -- how do you think she was able to do that, get up and talk in front of that crowd?

JACKSON: Well, she's a Jackson you know?

And that's all I can say about that at the moment. But she's got a lot of nerve, yes.

KING: Are you saying it's in the genes?

JACKSON: Of course it's in the genes.

Where else could it be?

KING: Do you think these children might go into show business?

JACKSON: I can't get into that right now, Larry, because, I mean, I just can't. But they like to watch movies and things and that show -- they watch hit shows on TV and stuff, you know.

What can I say?

KING: But I mean down the road, down the road, if they expressed an interest -- I mean, you raised a family and they all got into show business.

If the grandchildren wanted to, would you encourage them?

JACKSON: Larry -- Larry, I know where you're trying to go with that. And I don't want no (INAUDIBLE)...

KING: I'm not trying to go anywhere, I'm asking you would you encourage them...

JACKSON: Well, I'm not...

KING: ...to (INAUDIBLE) business?

JACKSON: I'm not encouraging them to do nothing -- not (INAUDIBLE). They have to be what they are, kids, at the moment -- yes, and be raised properly.

KING: So those rumors that you wanted to tour the Jackson 3 are not true?

JACKSON: Not true. That's a bunch of jive. That's a bunch of -- I wish I could say what I should say. That's a bunch of bull. That's a bunch of bull.

KING: Do you spend a lot of time with the grandkids?

JACKSON: I don't spend -- I'm -- I live in Las Vegas and they live in L.A. and I go back and forward sometimes, yes.

KING: Where is -- where is Michael's body?

JACKSON: I don't know. You'd have to ask somebody that knows. I don't know. All I know is that...

KING: You're the father.

JACKSON: I was at the memorial and where they took him from there, I have to find out. I'll let you know later, Larry.

KING: OK. But as the father, one would think you would have the most imminent right to know.

JACKSON: I do have that right. But I'm not talking about that right now.

KING: OK. Jermaine talked to me about seeing Michael's body and saying good-bye.

Did you get a chance to say good-bye?

JACKSON: Yes, I said good-bye to him when he was up -- well, when he was up there in front of us, you know?

And I say -- I'm saying good-bye to him now. But -- and what the others say, that's what they say. And what I'm saying is I do feel the loss of my son, Michael Jackson, who was an international star all over the world.

KING: But you -- you didn't get to see the body or say anything...

JACKSON: No, I did not.

KING: ...to the remains?

JACKSON: No I did not.

KING: Do you wish you could have?

JACKSON: I could have. But -- but I wanted to see Michael -- I wanted to remember Michael alive, because I didn't want to see him -- I didn't want to see him laying up in a casket, you know?

KING: Yes, I understand that.

JACKSON: Yes.

KING: If -- do you expect to be asked about burial?

JACKSON: Well, they could ask me...

KING: I mean, do you expect to be included in the decision?

JACKSON: Yes, I do expect a lot of things. But a lot of things you expect don't ever happen.

KING: How true.

We're going to talk about lots of things. And we'll be bringing in -- we have not forgotten your friend, Leonard, right there. And we'll be bringing in Leonard shortly to talk about...

JACKSON: There you go.

KING: Hold on right, Joe.

Hold on.

We'll be right back.

We're going to talk about the reported drug use and what you thought about that and what he did to help his son.

We're back with Joe Jackson. And we'll bring in Leonard a lot of time, as well, right after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(VIDEO CLIP)

KING: Oh, what a family Joe Jackson raised.

And, Joe, also with us is Leonard a lot of time in Atlanta, the music and concert promoter, a longtime friend of Michael Jackson. We're going to include Leonard in a lot more in a couple of moments.

But, Leonard, quickly, were you at that -- that last rehearsal of Michael's?

LEONARD ROWE, MUSIC & CONCERT PROMOTER: No, I wasn't.

KING: Did you make it -- what do you make of -- did you have any inkling that he might have a medical problem?

ROWE: Yes, I did.

KING: Based on what?

ROWE: Well, based on his physical appearance, based on his weight, based on his actions, based on his mental capacity. When I was with Michael, I didn't see the Michael that I'd normally have seen in the past. I've been knowing Michael for about 30 years. And I know when he was well, in good health. And I know when he's not in good health.

KING: Joe, what do you think of what Leonard just said?

JACKSON: Well, Leonard's telling the truth, because, you know, he knew Michael -- well, I'm the one that started Leonard a lot of time into being a concert promoter many years ago. And he did promote my -- my boys in the earlier years, of course.

KING: Yes, but I mean what do you think of what he just said, that he thought Michael was not well?

JACKSON: Well, he was not well, you know. This -- we tried to find out what the situation was, but there were a lot of times that we couldn't get to him like we should.

KING: You're not surprised, then, at what Leonard just said?

JACKSON: No, I'm not surprised.

KING: The official autopsy results have not yet been released. They've been delayed a while, I guess.

But you had a private autopsy.

What can you tell us it said, Joe?

JACKSON: Well, I haven't -- I don't know yet. I haven't heard it. I haven't read it.

KING: Didn't you get a private autopsy for the family?

JACKSON: Yes, but they haven't -- they haven't reported nothing to me yet.

KING: Well, I don't understand. You're the father. And a...

JACKSON: Yes, of course I'm the father.

KING: So don't you have the right to say to the people, we have a private autopsy, will you show it to me?

JACKSON: Well, they have not showed it to me, Larry. I'll put it like that.

KING: OK.

And you haven't asked for it?

JACKSON: Well, I figured I would get it pretty soon, so I didn't ask for it.

KING: Do you frankly think that drugs were involved in your son's life?

JACKSON: Something happened there, Larry. This wasn't just only drugs. This -- there's something else behind all of that.

KING: And what do you mean?

What do you -- what is -- where is it -- what are you thinking?

JACKSON: Well, I'm thinking that there's foul play, you know?

That's what I'm thinking. And...

KING: Well, but explain that.

Foul play meaning what, somebody trying to harm him?

JACKSON: Of course. A lot of time, you -- you get into that, a lot of time.

ROWE: Larry?

Larry?

KING: You get into the -- I don't know what you said. I'm sorry, I didn't hear what you said.

JACKSON: I told a lot of time to get into that. So he knows all that stuff about the, you know, what happened (INAUDIBLE).

KING: OK, Leonard, what do you know about foul play?

ROWE: Well, Larry, let me explain this to you. During Michael's final days, the final days of Michael's life, and during the final days that was leading up to his life, as well as the final days that surrounded his death, there was a lot of suspicious activity going on in his surroundings.

KING: Like?

ROWE: Michael Jackson's life, at the end, was being controlled and manipulated. Michael Jackson was not allowed to make his own decisions. He was not allowed to hire who he wanted to hire to work for him. Michael Jackson was being told what to do and people was controlling Michael Jackson.

KING: By whom?

Who was that?

ROWE: The same people that was controlling Michael Jackson financially, the people taking care of Michael Jackson, the people that was paying his bills. Those are the people that was controlling Michael Jackson.

KING: Who is that?

Is that the corporation that owns Neverland?

Are you referring to them?

ROWE: No. It was the promotors who were promoting him in London...

KING: You're talking...

ROWE: ...which was AEG. They was -- at the time of Michael's death, they were the ones that was controlling Michael's life. And this is (INAUDIBLE)...

KING: But what did that have to do with foul play?

ROWE: Well, let me say this. Foul play would have to be determined with an investigation. But what we are saying is there was a lot of suspicious activity that was surrounding Michael.

KING: By AEG?

ROWE: I mean...

KING: Well, why would...

ROWE: Let me...

KING: Why would AEG want to harm him when he's going to perform for them?

ROWE: Listen, let me -- let me correct you about something here. I'm not saying that. I'm going to repeat myself. There was a lot of suspicious activity that was occurring around Michael Jackson and I'm willing to explain it.

Michael Jackson, at the end, was not allowed to make decisions of his own. Everything was being told. Michael Jackson...

KING: You said that.

ROWE: OK. Let's...

KING: I understand that, Leonard. But that's not foul play.

ROWE: OK. Let me explain what -- what I'm saying to you when I say suspicious activity.

KING: Right.

What do you mean?

ROWE: People was brought in to run Michael Jackson's life...

KING: OK.

ROWE: ...that he had dismissed from his life in the past, OK, by AEG. AEG brought people in that Michael had dismissed in the past. I found that to be very unusual. I was one of the people that Michael Jackson personally hired to come in, but everyone was against that...

KING: But I -- but, Leonard...

ROWE: ...everyone from AEG.

KING: I understand -- I understand that.

ROWE: OK.

KING: But I don't understand how that constitutes foul play.

ROWE: OK. Let me say this to you. There was a doctor in the house with Michael Jackson -- the healthy Michael Jackson, the Michael Jackson that AEG said was in perfect health. That doctor was put in the house with Michael Jackson and he was paid a large sum of money per month.

KING: To do what?

ROWE: To (INAUDIBLE)...

KING: To take care of him, right?

ROWE: Yes.

But why would you put -- why do someone that's completely healthy, as they say, need someone to take care of them?

I consider myself...

KING: So you're implying...

ROWE: I consider myself healthy, Larry. I don't have a doctor living with me.

Do you have one living with you?

So...

KING: So you're implying foul play by sending a doctor there?

ROWE: No, Larry. Let me say this to you. Michael Jackson was addicted.

Do you understand that?

We all know that.

KING: Correct.

ROWE: It's not a secret.

KING: OK.

ROWE: Would you put a cocaine seller in the house with a cocaine addict? No, you wouldn't do that.

KING: Are you saying they put a cocaine seller in the house -- the doctor was selling cocaine?

ROWE: I didn't say that, Larry. But he was able to write...

KING: Well, what did you say?

ROWE: He was able to administer drugs.

KING: Joe, what do you...

ROWE: Do you understand that?

KING: I understand .

Hold on, Leonard.

Joe, what do you think of what Leonard has had to say?

JACKSON: Well, this is what -- you don't take a doctor and stick him in the room there and the doctor give him something to make him rest and then he don't wake up no more. Something is wrong there. The doctor -- the doctor -- the doctor just -- somehow, I understand that he left or went to sleep or something. I don't know what happened there.

But he tried to bring Michael...

KING: Are you implying, then, that the doctor committed foul play...

JACKSON: Something went wrong...

KING: ...Joe?

JACKSON: Something went wrong, Larry, because when he -- when they tried to bring Michael back, he was dead. Something went wrong. Let me...

KING: All right. Let me get a break here. We ran a little over. I'll be right back.

We'll ask our guests whether they ever talked to Michael directly about drug use.

More next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: We're back with Joe Jackson in Las Vegas and Leonard a lot of time in Atlanta.

Joe, did you talk to Michael about drug use?

JACKSON: No, I did not. KING: Why not?

JACKSON: I never got a chance to.

KING: I'll go back to -- you're his father.

If you pick up the phone and you call your son and you're worried about him and you know he's had some problems with this, why wouldn't you counsel him?

JACKSON: Larry, I'm going to cut through the chase on this. I could never get to him. I tried all I could and I could never get to him because he -- I was barred away from him by securities and all that type of thing. I could not get to him.

KING: They cut you off?

JACKSON: That's right, Larry. They cut me off.

KING: Now, what if Michael asked to see you?

JACKSON: Well, that's a horse of another color. If he asked to see me, then he probably could have seen me.

KING: All right.

So why do you think he didn't?

JACKSON: Well, I couldn't -- I can't answer that, Larry. All I know is I was barred from being around there to see him.

And we were just talking about foul play.

You want to know about foul play?

If a doctor's there that couldn't bring you back -- and this doctor, he ran away. They had to look for him three days to find him.

So what do you think there that's happened?

To me, that's foul play.

KING: All right. That's your explanation. That's fair enough.

Do you -- what do you say about all these things that have been said over the years, that you harmed Michael as a child?

JACKSON: Oh, that's a bunch of bull S. That's a bunch of bull S.

KING: Straighten me out.

JACKSON: You know, that's not true. I would never...

KING: You never physically harmed him?

JACKSON: Never. Never have. And I -- and I raised him just like you would raise your kids, you know?

But harm Michael, for what?

I have no reason. That's my son. I loved him and I still love him.

KING: And we'll be back with more after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: Joe, sometimes in a family, when a family member dies, the other family members feel some sense of guilt. For instance -- it might be unwarranted.

Do you feel any guilt at all?

Do you ever say to yourself, I could have done more?

JACKSON: Well, I wish -- I wish I had done more. I wish I had have broke those gates down they had me barred out from him and went in there and got past the security guards myself. But, you know, I was (INAUDIBLE)...

KING: That's understandable...

(CROSSTALK)

KING: ...to have guilt or -- I would have guilt over that.

Now, what about that unseen footage, that notorious '84 Pepsi commercial shoot made public last week by "Us Weekly?"

It was pretty graphic. It's been shown many times.

Do you think that was a big turning point for your son?

JACKSON: Well, I imagine so, because, you know, he got his hair singed off his head. And -- and it took a long time for that thing to heal, you know?

So -- so it had to have some kind of damage to him, of course.

KING: Did he -- did he talk to you about it?

JACKSON: No, he did not.

KING: Leonard, what did you make of it?

ROWE: What did I make of his hair burning, Larry?

KING: Yes.

ROWE: It was just a...

KING: I mean do you think it had a telling event on his life, affecting drug use and etc.? ROWE: I think so, Larry. When I first met Michael Jackson, he would hard -- he wouldn't drink a Coca-Cola. So as far as taking any kind of drugs, that was totally out of the question. And that was something that him and I used to talk about quite often.

Michael Jackson was against drugs and he was against alcohol at the time when I first met him. So I think...

KING: So something went wrong?

ROWE: Well, he began taking those drugs -- I think that was in 1984, because he had a lot of excruciating pain.

KING: Right after the incident?

ROWE: Sure.

KING: Yes.

ROWE: And, you know, like a lot of people do, I think he became addicted, which he said and which he had told me before.

KING: Do you think it might have started, also -- Joe, do you think it might have started a lot of plastic surgery, because of that burn?

JACKSON: It could have, you know. I don't know the reason when it started. But it could have started a lot of plastic surgery.

KING: Yes. Because he sure -- he must have had a lot of it, right?

(AUDIO GAP)

KING: Joe, you all right?

JACKSON: I'm OK. Yes, I'm good. Thank you. Yes, I'm good.

KING: Let me get a break.

We'll be right back with Joe and -- and Leonard.

Don't go away.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: Joe, in a minute, I want to clear up some business involvement -- a question involving Leonard and Michael.

But are you surprised, Joe, that you were left out of the will?

JACKSON: Well, I wasn't too surprised, because, you know, that's what his -- it was his will. That's the way he wanted it. And it's not going to hurt me that I was left out of his will. But it happened. And I can't (INAUDIBLE)...

KING: Were you estranged from Michael? JACKSON: Well, he left it to his mother, you know, as much as he could. And -- and I figure that it will be -- she's pretty fair a lady to be able to -- to be fair with everything about the will.

KING: Are you and she separated?

JACKSON: No, we're not.

KING: You're still marr -- a married couple?

JACKSON: That's right.

KING: All right, now to the business thing.

What involvement, if any, did either of you have in Michael's business affairs?

And this is a note to you, Leonard. Leonard, apparently, you have a letter March 25th addressed to AEG's Randy Phillips, purportedly signed by Michael Jackson.

In the letter, Michael reportedly says that "effective from this date, Mr. Leonard a lot of time is my authorized representative in matters concerning my endeavors in the entertainment industry."

Is that true?

Do you have that letter, Leonard?

ROWE: Yes, I do.

KING: OK.

Now how about another letter that comes forth, dated May 20th, the same year: "Dear Mr. A lot of time, I hope you are well. After further consideration, I've decided to streamline my business opportunities at this time. Accordingly, this is to inform you that you do not represent me and I do not wish to have any oral or written communication with you regarding the handling of my business and/or personal matters. With respect to my touring matters, please -- please feel free to contact Frank DeLeo or Randy Phillips of AEG."

Did you get that letter?

ROWE: Never received that letter, Larry.

And let me say this to you, Larry. Michael Jackson knew very well how to reach me by phone, by mail and a couple of more ways. I've never received that letter, Larry.

But this letter is back to what I was saying to you at first.

Michael was being controlled. I was not on AEG payroll. I was not one of their people. They did not want me around Michael Jackson nor did they want anyone around Michael Jackson that they did not control. Because if they could keep people from around Michael Jackson that was trying to look out for his well being and people that actually cared about Michael, they could reach their goal of stripping Michael.

That's what I truly felt.

KING: Are either of you -- Joe, are you going to go -- were you going to go to the London concerts, Joe?

JACKSON: Yes, I was going to be there. They didn't want me there, but I was going to be there. They didn't want me around my son at all, you know, because they know that I'd be watching everything they do.

KING: Leonard, were you going to go?

ROWE: Yes, I was going, Larry, because Michael had hired me to oversee his finances, number one. And to look...

KING: So do you discount this purported -- this letter which appears to have a signature...

ROWE: I've never received a letter, Larry. I have to receive it first. And I don't think Michael meant for me to receive that letter. You know...

KING: When was the last time you spoke to him?

ROWE: Let me say something, Larry. I think you are missing something here.

KING: All right, go ahead.

ROWE: But I can't stand it, Michael was being controlled.

KING: I understand that.

ROWE: And I'd like to understand that. I don't think you understand.

KING: Well, he could get to a phone. Did he talk to you on the phone?

ROWE: I spoke to Michael. I was also in a meeting with Michael and Randy Phillips, one of his employees, Mr. Jackson and his mother, about three weeks before Michael passed. If they wanted me to receive that letter, they could have easily hand that letter to me. But that letter was never handed to me. And Joe could verify that.

JACKSON: That's right.

KING: So Michael never said anything to you about breaking off the relationship?

ROWE: What Michael said to me is, "Rowe, I need you to look out for my money. I have kids. I can't come back from London with no money." And I gave him my word that I would do that.

But you know what? I was in the way, Larry, like anyone that was going to look out for Michael's money because I think other people had a different agenda about Michael's money. Do you understand me?

KING: Yes, I understand what you're saying. So you're saying this letter is not what it's supposed to be?

ROWE: What I'm saying is I've never received that letter, I've never seen it. So how can I tell you that?

KING: But you're saying -- you are saying you were with him three weeks before he died and gave you no indication he was going to break off with you.

ROWE: Just -- his father is here on your show. And he could verify that I was with Michael.

JACKSON: That's right, he never received that letter, Larry.

KING: Right.

ROWE: Three weeks before he passed we met at the Beverly Hills Hotel. And I was trying to discuss different things with Randy Phillips concerning Michael's finances in London, England.

KING: And...

ROWE: As far as scalping of the tickets and things that I thought they were doing unethical to Michael Jackson. I was doing my job for Michael Jackson. That's what he hired me to do.

KING: Joe, how did that meeting end?

JACKSON: That meeting ended with me out there and shouting on the floor and talking to Larry Phillips about...

ROWE: Randy.

JACKSON: ...they wanted...

KING: Randy.

JACKSON: ...to pay him in U.S. dollars and I wanted him to get paid in pounds. And he said, by the time his tour starts, the U.S. dollar will be much more than the pound.

ROWE: Which was totally untrue.

JACKSON: And that's not untrue, because the U.S. dollar was never more than the pound. And they said they were going to straighten all this stuff out and get back with me. I never heard from Randy Phillips at all...

KING: Ok.

JACKSON: ...until I called him. And then when I called him and asked about all this stuff he said he never said that.

ROWE: And Larry, can I say something here really quick. KING: Yes.

ROWE: I want you to hear me and I like you to hear me well.

If people cared about Michael's well-being like they paraded they did, they really paraded around like they was Mother Teresa. But I told Michael in numerous occasions that they wasn't. But if they really cared...

KING: I'm going to get to break. All right, hold it, Joe, hold it Leonard.

ROWE: Ok.

KING: Joe was answering your questions tonight, too. You go to CNN.com/Larryking, ask him what you'd like to know. Don't forget our Twitter and Facebook accounts.

Back with Joe Jackson and Leonard Rowe right after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: Leonard, you described the actions of AEG as unethical. What do you mean, Joe? What was unethical?

ROWE: Can I answer that, Joe, please?

JACKSON: Yes, you go ahead and answer that. You better put it there.

ROWE: Ok and Larry, I would like to answer that question, please.

KING: Go ahead.

ROWE: Larry, the first conversation I had with Michael Jackson. The night, it was a Friday night, the night he asked me to come and go to work for him. This is what he told me.

He said, "Rowe, I only agreed to do ten shows for AEG. I never agreed to do 50. He said I can't do no 50 shows, Rowe." He said "I never agreed."

I said, "Well, Mike, what is your deal? He said, "I don't know what my deal is." He said, "I need you, Rowe to straighten that out. I need you to get with Randy Phillips on Monday morning and take care of that." He said "I would like for you to schedule the shows out and stretch them out to a schedule that is doable for me."

KING: So you're saying that they set 50...

ROWE: Hold on Larry, would you please give me...

KING: Hold on, hold on, you're wandering off. Are you saying, when they said 50, that was against Michael's wishes?

ROWE: Totally. Michael wasn't capable...

KING: But they were selling tickets for 50?

ROWE: I said that. But he didn't approve that Larry. He was telling me that he didn't approve 50; he only approved 10.

KING: But we have a statement from -- we have a statement from AEG President and CEO Randy Phillips...

ROWE: Did you have a contract?

KING: ...on the number of concerts.

ROWE: It's isn't even approved.

KING: Read. And he says, "Our original agreement with Michael Jackson called for 31 shows. It was our option as the promoter to only announce the first ten concerts, knowing that based on the response to the presale we could and would add the additional 21 shows.

The presale response was so overwhelming that we went back to Michael's representative at the time, Dr. Thome (ph), to inquire whether Michael would be willing to increase the number of shows." He reported that Michael was willing to increase the number of performance to 50.

And I would expect that AEG is going to probably dispute these allegations tonight. But they're saying Michael agreed to it.

ROWE: Ok, let me just say this to you Larry.

KING: Could that be after their spoke to you?

ROWE: Let me say this Larry, no, it couldn't be. But first of all and let me say this...

KING: So you're saying they're lying?

ROWE: Let me say this. Listen to me say this, they'll say anything, ok?

But what they should do is produce to you a contract showing what was signed by Michael to do 50. Do you have that?

KING: I don't have any contract, no. Ok.

ROWE: But you have my contract with Michael. You have that one.

KING: Ok, yes, I think we have that.

ROWE: Yes, you do.

KING: All right Joe "People" magazine quotes what is described as a source close to the family as saying, that you are willing to sign papers saying that you don't live with Katherine and won't be involved in raising Michael's kids.

Is that true or false?

JACKSON: I've never said I was going to sign any papers to that effect. But...

KING: Well, there's a lot flying around here.

JACKSON: And they got wings. They fly around with a lot of stuff that's not true.

KING: Ok, we have a blog question for Joe.

JACKSON: Square.

KING: A lot of questions posted for Joe on the Larry King blog. Did Michael convert to Islam? Was he a Muslim when he died?

ROWE: Joe don't know that, Larry.

JACKSON: I don't know that.

KING: Ok. Joe, what do you make of the document that's been filed in court as Michael's will? Do you think -- do you have any complaints about his will?

JACKSON: Well, I don't like the people -- because all these people that was involved with the will -- Michael fired those people. Now all of a sudden they're popping back up here.

ROWE: Larry, there was a lot of complaints about the will. Not about the will. No one is contesting the will. So let me say that and let me repeat myself. No one is contesting the will.

But what may be contested is the trustee of the will...

KING: All right.

ROWE: ...because there's a question whether Michael Jackson wanted these people, those trustees over the will, in place, at the time of his death.

KING: Joe, do you have any...

ROWE: These are the people -- I'm sorry, Larry, but these are people Michael had dismissed from his life earlier.

KING: All right, I got you.

Joe, do you have any at all bad feelings about the way Michael was raised? I know you are denying the stories about violence. But as you looked at it, were there any mistakes you made?

JACKSON: I didn't make no mistakes, Larry, because Michael, Michael was raised properly. He didn't run the streets like most of those other kids that was in his neighborhood.

KING: Why did he said... JACKSON: Listen, listen. Listen, now. You've got to understand me. Don't cut me off here, Larry. Michael has claims that he had a troubled life -- Michael never had -- he had his own brothers and sisters to play with. And most of those kids that was Michael's age during their time, they're not living now. So, you know...

KING: So when he -- didn't he once say that you were physically/emotionally abusive to him?

JACKSON: I've never been abusive to him, never have.

KING: But did he say that? Did he ever say that to your knowledge?

JACKSON: Well, I don't know whether he said that or not. But I hear the media keep hollering about that I abused him, I've never abused my son.

ROWE: Larry -- could I say something, Joe?

JACKSON: Wait, wait, wait, Rowe, let me handle this right here.

KING: That's right, Joe.

JACKSON: Let me handle this. The media keep hollering about saying that I beat Michael. That's not true. You know what this beat started -- beat started in the slavery days. Where they used to beat the slaves and then they used to torture them.

That's where these beating started. These slave masters, and that's where that come from. But, hey, there's a lot of people in America, Larry, a lot of people in America spank their kids, you know? They say they don't, they're lying. They're lying.

Now, Michael was never beaten by me, I've never beaten at all.

KING: Ok, you're on record.

Was Joe Jackson responsible for the kids' success? That's tonight's quick-vote question. Go to CNN.com/Larryking, tell us what you think.

So far, by the way, the majority says yes. The father was responsible for the success.

Back in 60 seconds.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: Joe, another Twitter question. If you could do it over with Michael -- raising -- what would you do differently?

JACKSON: Are you speaking to me?

KING: Yes, Joe. What would you do differently if you could do it all over again?

JACKSON: Well, I'll tell you what I would do differently. I think I would make sure that all this media talk about what I'm doing to Michael and the family, hey, I would be more cautious about the media because the media can -- well, you know, naturally they do all this stuff for ratings and they get a check. They get a check for all of this stuff they put out. But most of this stuff is not true. And that's unfair.

KING: And you think you should have handled it better initially?

JACKSON: Not too much better I could have done. Because I was working two jobs and then promoting my boys as well and I kept them eating and then, that's a lot to do. But I did it. I worked two jobs.

KING: All right, back with some more of -- back with some more of Joe and Leonard, don't go away.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: John King sits in for Anderson Cooper. He'll host AC 360. John what's up?

JOHN KING, CNN HOST, "STATE OF THE NATION": Larry, fascinating conversation you've got going there.

Coming up at the top of the hour on "360," we'll have more on what you're talking about: the Michael Jackson case including the latest details on the investigation and the big question -- whether or not criminal charges might be filed in Jackson's death.

Plus, President Obama's health care plan on the ropes. The crown jewel, you'll remember, of candidate Obama's campaign platform. But now, some of those in his own Democratic Party threatening to derail it. We'll look at how any compromise might be reached and how that would affect the future of your health care.

And new details in the Billings murder in Florida: new details about a past relationship between Billings and one of the suspects.

Plus, police say they're looking at what they're calling a second motive in the killing. We'll talk to the sheriff right here tonight.

All that Larry, at the top of the hour on "360."

KING: That's John King 10:00 Eastern and 7:00 Pacific.

A couple other quick things, fellows, from our blog. What, Joe, is your favorite Michael song?

JACKSON: The "Earth" song. I like that "Earth" song that he always sang about the animals and all that stuff because he was crazy about animals.

KING: How do you think he'll be remembered?

JACKSON: Well, he should be remembered -- how he would be remembered? KING: Yes.

JACKSON: All over the world?

KING: Yes.

JACKSON: Because he was a fan to everybody all over the world and also he's in the "Guinness Book World of Records" as selling more records than anybody in show business history. And he should be remembered by that. I just wished he could have -- go ahead. I'm sorry.

KING: It stands on its own.

Leonard, do you think the legal issues here are going to be resolved?

ROWE: Which legal issues?

KING: Well, the question of whether do you had any part of this they had, your charges about AEG that's a lot up in the air here?

ROWE: Larry, I couldn't answer that question. I know nothing about legal charges about AEG or nothing. I mean I have...

KING: Well I mean, you've made statements about AEG. Do you think that might ever be resolved?

ROWE: Larry, I hope that we have a Congressional investigation into Michael's death. And that is something that I have spoke to Joe about. I'll be speaking to his mother about and we will be asking the Congress to do that. Because there's something that I ...

KING: Joe, do you support that idea? We are almost out of time. Joe, do you support that?

JACKSON: Of course I do. I want to find out all I can about his situation there with certain people. For instance, Dr. Thome...

KING: All right.

JACKSON: Dr. Thome, he's no doctor. And he was fired by Michael and this is a terrible guy, he got about nine -- eight or nine different aliases.

KING: We're going to do a lot more on this. Thank you both very much.

Joe Jackson and Leonard Rowe, thank you.

By the way, tomorrow night, Liz Cheney will be here and a week from tomorrow night an hour with Colin Powell.

Some serious allegations have been made about AEG here tonight. And I suspect AEG will likely dispute the charges being leveled.

Debbie Rowe has stayed out of the spotlight. Her good friend is here to tell us why next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: We now welcome Iris Finsilver to LARRY KING LIVE; a return visit for the former attorney for Michael Jackson's ex-wife Debbie Rowe and still a close friend of Debbie's. What did you make of the Joe Jackson interview?

IRIS FINSILVER, DEBBIE ROWE'S LONGTIME FRIEND: Well, I think it is a real bombshell, Larry. It's certainly surprising a lot of the things that were said today.

KING: When did you last have contact with Debbie?

FINSILVER: Last Friday is the last time I talked to Debbie.

KING: Not long ago and how is she doing?

FINSILVER: Well, yes, I try to talk to her every day.

KING: Has she seen the children?

FINSILVER: No. Not yet.

KING: What does she plan to do?

FINSILVER: Well, as far as I know...

KING: Plus, the hearing has been postponed, right?

FINSILVER: Correct. It's my understanding that certainly the family would try to work something out. I believe that that's what the judge said in open court. And that's always the best thing to do in a family situation is to have the parents and the grandparents sit down and talk about what their concerns are, what they might be afraid of.

KING: What does Debbie want with her children?

FINSILVER: Well, obviously, she would like to have a relationship with her children.

KING: Not custody?

FINSILVER: I don't know -- I really -- I don't know if she wants every day hands-on custody of the kids. The thing is, when she was married to Michael and having children with Michael she wanted to be a part of their lives but she recognized in her mind that Michael would be a better parent.

KING: She did?

FINSILVER: Yes. She thought he would be a great...

KING: That's an honest way to look at it.

FINSILVER: Yes, she said... KING: With all the rumors swirling around, did she ever tell you that Michael wasn't the father?

FINSILVER: I know that Michael was the father.

KING: Was the father.

FINSILVER: One hundred percent, Michael is the father of those two children. Yes.

KING: So if it's not custody, you think an arrangement will be worked out?

FINSILVER: I think so. I would hope so certainly. Sure.

KING: Why do people have negative feelings about Debbie, do you think?

FINSILVER: I think that the Jackson family doesn't know Debbie. Michael knew Debbie. I don't think that Katherine has ever met Debbie as far as I know. I don't think that Joe has ever met Debbie.

I don't know about the brothers and the sisters. But I think because they don't know her, they're fearful that she might do something or say something or you know it's...

KING: She blew-up at some paparazzi a couple weeks ago last week I think. Did that surprised you?

FINSILVER: No. I mean, it's not in her character to blow-up. But it certainly didn't surprise me to see a pack of photographers on her heels and for her to make a comment like that. I think that she's been very upset. I've spoken to her about it. She's had the paparazzi camped outside of her house.

KING: Still?

FINSILVER: Still. Still.

KING: How has all of this changed, you knew her before Michael, right?

FINSILVER: Yes and I've known Debbie before, during and after.

KING: Events changed life, right?

FINSILVER: Absolutely.

KING: People don't change, circumstances change. How has she changed?

FINSILVER: Debbie is still the same caring, loving person. Debbie has always loved those children.

I want to tell you something about her kids. She used to have pictures in her house of herself with her children. And one day I went in to her closet and it was like a shrine in the closet with all these pictures. So I said "Debbie why do you have all the pictures of your children in your closet?" And she said, "I can't leave them out. When people come in to my home they steal these photographs."

KING: What's wrong with that?

FINSILVER: She doesn't want her guests to come in the house and steal photographs of her children.

KING: Oh, steal them.

FINSILVER: Steal. Yes, yes.

KING: So why do you think she doesn't want them, now?

FINSILVER: Oh I didn't say it...

KING: She thought Michael would be a better father but he's gone.

FINSILVER: Right, so I didn't...

KING: Does she think Katherine is a good mother?

FINSILVER: I know, I...

KING: ...a good grandmother?

FINSILVER: I don't want to put those kinds of thoughts out there that she would say that. I think that she wants to step up to the plate. She's always loved those children, Larry. Always.

KING: Is she very emotionally distraught over Michael's death?

FINSILVER: Yes. Yes. She loved him more than any other person in the world. And you asked me a question, Larry. You asked me, did I see this change in Debbie.

KING: Yes.

FINSILVER: And I remember the night that she was leaving Beverly Hills to fly to Australia to get married to Michael. and I said, "Debbie, your world is going to change completely." And she said, "No, no. I'm still going to be the same me," and she skipped out the door and ran-off to get married.

She really had no idea that the world would be interested in her.

KING: Why did they break up?

FINSILVER: I really don't know the exact facts. I think that she didn't like life in the public eye. She had been in Paris with him. She had gone on various tours with him.

KING: It wasn't her style? FINSILVER: It's not her style.

KING: Was it -- was Michael -- but was that in vitro with Michael or was it natural sex?

FINSILVER: That I don't know. I know that they had sex together. That's what she told me.

KING: Now that -- Arnold Klein said that the other night, you have no about that, right?

FINSILVER: That Debbie had sex...

KING: Sex with Michael.

FINSILVER: I have no doubt. I wasn't in the bedroom. But I have no doubt that when she would tell me her -- these little things about their private life -- that it would...

KING: Will you attend the custody hearing when she attends.

FINSILVER: No. I don't believe so.

KING: Why not? You're her friend, you were her lawyer?

FINSILVER: I'm her friend. I'm there for her in her personal life. I want to stay out of the courtroom when she's in the courtroom so.

KING: But you do think it'll be resolved so that she can get visitation, Katherine will raise them. They'll work it out?

FINSILVER: I think if the Jackson family gets to know Debbie and if they sit down and talk to her, whatever fears they're thinking...

KING: They'll work it out.

FINSILVER: Yes, absolutely.

KING: Good seeing you again, Iris.

FINSILVER: Great to see you, Larry.

KING: We'll call on you again.

FINSILVER: Thank you.

KING: Iris Finsilver, our connection to Debbie Rowe and maybe Debbie will come here one night.

FINSILVER: Maybe, that would be great.

KING: It might be nice.

FINSILVER: Yes.

KING: Earlier, we heard about allegations from Dr. Thome. We will try to get reaction.

And tomorrow, Liz Cheney will be with us and as we said, a week from tomorrow Colin Powell.

Time now for John King and "AC360" -- John.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0907/20/lkl.01.html

Source: Dr. Murray Gave Jackson Propofol; 911 Caller in Harvard Professor Arrest Disputes Cambridge Police

Aired July 27, 2009 - 21:00 ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


JIM MORET, "INSIDE EDITION," GUEST HOST: Tonight, breaking news bombshell in the Michael Jackson case -- his personal doctor administered the powerful anesthetic that authorities believe killed him.

Why did he give Jackson Propofol?

Did he provide it on the day Jackson died?

Is he officially a suspect in the king of pop's death?

Dr. Conrad Murray's lawyers aren't talking tonight, but inside sources are.

Plus, the Gates take -- what did the Harvard professor's neighbor report to police?

Hear her 911 call for yourself, right now on LARRY KING LIVE.

I'm Jim Moret from "INSIDE EDITION" sitting in tonight for Larry King.

Joining us to talk about the breaking Jackson news, our CNN's Ted Rowlands and "Extra's" Carlos Diaz -- Ted, first to you.

What can you tell us about the investigation?

TED ROWLANDS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: According to a source which is very close to the Jackson family and has knowledge of the ongoing death investigation into Jackson's death, Dr. Conrad Murray, his personal physician, who was with him when he died, administered Propofol or Diprivan to Jackson in a 24 hour period prior to Jackson's death.

It's significant because it's the first time we've connected Dr. Murray to this drug, which we've been talking about a lot the last few weeks. But this is the first confirmation to a source of a connection between Murray and Jackson.

MORET: And, Carlos, this steps up the entire scope of the investigation and the nature of it with respect to Dr. Murray.

CARLOS DIAZ, CORRESPONDENT, "EXTRA": It -- well, it focuses it, you know, on Dr. Murray. And, you know, for the last month, we've been saying that Dr. Murray, you know, is a suspect, although his lawyer has long said that he's not. In fact, his lawyer just issued the statement saying we will not be commenting on rumors, innuendo or unnamed sources.

So, you know, it's one of those situations where now, because of this unnamed source, we're looking at Dr. Conrad Murray more specifically than any other doctor that's being looked at right now. And -- but that's the thing. I mean, it's nothing new that we haven't heard before, it's just who we're hearing it from, which is someone from the Jackson household.

MORET: Ted, do we know where Dr. Murray is, if he's in contact with authorities?

ROWLANDS: We don't know where he is specifically. His lawyers aren't telling us. But, clearly, they're in contact with authorities. In fact, they were supposed to meet for a third time last Friday. But following the search warrant served in Houston, that meeting was "postponed" and they have not yet scheduled another meeting.

But, clearly, they are they are in contact and if they want to talk to Dr. Murray, his lawyers say that he is totally available. Anything they want, they can have. And we should clarify, he is by no means a suspect in this case.

MORET: Right. And as Carlos mentioned, his lawyers have steadfastly maintained his innocence.

You tried to contact his attorneys late this afternoon.

What did they tell you?

ROWLANDS: Basically, that, as Carlos said, they're not going to comment to these what they call rumor, innuendos or sourced reporting. They will not comment from here on out, until the coroner report is out, the toxicology is made public, until they find out what's -- what's in Jackson's body. They're not going to comment on anything unless it comes from an official.

MORET: But it's curious, because they really stepped this thing up last week, because the search warrants were issued and they were the first to come forward saying that they -- the authorities were looking for evidence of a homicide, of manslaughter.

ROWLANDS: Of manslaughter.

MORET: That was -- that was Dr. Murray's own attorney.

ROWLANDS: But they took it from the search warrant. And you could look at it two ways.

Why would their attorneys say, you know, throw out the word manslaughter?

Well, they clearly took the wind out of the sail from a reporter running out of the courthouse and saying, aha, manslaughter. So, you know, I don't read too much into that. It was a bombshell when it came out, but it makes sense from a strategic standpoint.

And they maintain they are cooperating.

DIAZ: And they're getting in front of the story. I mean, the lawyers, you know, are trying to maintain some -- some of normalcy here by saying OK, well, this is what we have to say. And that's why I think it's very telling that today the statement that they've put out is very terse and very -- and very to the point, saying we're not going to comment.

This is the first time the lawyer has said, OK, we're not going to comment on that. And that might be something you'd read into right there.

MORET: And we want to add that Dr. Murray has, throughout all of this, maintained his innocence -- Ted, you said he's not officially a suspect, but he was the subject of a massive search.

ROWLANDS: Yes. And it could be -- there could be more search warrants coming down in connection to this case. But keep in mind, the DEA is working with local police here. And they're looking at everything that Jackson was prescribed and every doctor that administered X, Y or Z.

So this -- that, in itself, makes sense. The glaring thing in that search warrant saying the word manslaughter in terms of when they went to the judge and they said -- they had to get probable cause, obviously. They went to the judge and said we're looking for information that could lead to the crime of manslaughter. So that was eye-opening.

But Murray -- there could be other people still out there and we've got to be real careful to say he's a suspect in a murder or in a homicide when we don't even know what the cause of death is.

MORET: But still, sources now saying that this doctor administered Diprivan or Propofol to Michael Jackson.

Carlos, there were reports of various drugs found in the doctor's room where he was staying at Michael Jackson's mansion. That's significant, as well.

DIAZ: It is significant. It's significant that Dr. Murray was the one who led the authorities there when he was questioned on Saturday night, after the death of Michael Jackson. He basically said there are drugs in this closet, in this room -- drugs that authorities had overlooked. So he's -- he's been very forthcoming and very, you know, outright with saying these are where the drugs were. And they found Diprivan at that time. And that's where the whole Diprivan story started, when they found Diprivan in -- in his home.

MORET: And I want to remind viewers, these are items recovered by investigators from Dr. Murray's house and his storage -- storage unit -- a computer; two hard drives; 27 tablets of a prescription strength appetite suppressant; a tablet of Klonopin, an anti-anxiety medication; some Rolodex cards; a contact list.

Ted, what is the significance of some of these items? We -- we have notices from the IRS, a laundry list of medical and hospital documents.

ROWLANDS: And a couple e-mails to a specific person. We did find out through a source that that individual -- that mystery woman in the e-mails that were confiscated as part of the search warrant is the individual that had a storage locker in her name, not Dr. Murray's name, in Houston, but was using it for Dr. Murray. That's according to a source familiar with the investigation.

Basically, in a case like this, the DEA is involved. And they do this all the time. They know what they're looking for. You've got to think about going into a medical office. It's not like going into a drug dealer's house, where you're looking for anything.

They're looking for very specific things. And that's why it didn't take them long. They went in, got what they needed and left.

MORET: What do the lawyers have to say about all of this?

Find out, because our legal eagles are here to tell us how they would prosecute this case or defend the accused, should it come to that.

Stick around.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MORET: Welcome back to LARRY KING LIVE.

I'm Jim Moret from "INSIDE EDITION" sitting in for Larry tonight.

Joining us now, our defense attorneys. Mark Geragos, former Jackson attorney; and Trent Copeland; and Robin Sax, who's former Los Angeles County deputy district attorney and the author of "Predators and Child Molesters." Trent, you're also a CBS legal analyst. I don't want to slight you any.

Robin, first to you, a former deputy DA. You have this evidence now for linking this doctor to using the substance that investigators believe killed Michael Jackson.

As a prosecutor, what do you do with it?

ROBIN SAX, FORMER DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY, L.A. COUNTY: I'm thinking I'm filing charges first thing in the morning if I -- if that's the report that I'm actually getting. The only question in my mind is whether it's going to be second degree murder or involuntary manslaughter.

MORET: Many people would say wait a minute. You're jumping the gun. You first have to know where he got the drug.

Did he get it from Michael Jackson?

What do you look at, did he give it to him and that's it, and did it kill him?

SAX: Well, if he was the person that administered this drug and he was the last doctor whop was tending to him and he knows that this drug can only be administered in the hospital, regardless if it was prescribed by someone else, received by someone else -- I'd get those people, too. Don't get me wrong. But first, I would start with Dr. Murray.

MORET: And, Mark, you hear that charges may be filed. You're -- you're the attorney for Dr. Murray.

What do you look for?

We know, for example, that there -- there was problem with some of the evidence. The house wasn't secured.

Do you look at any of that or do you just go...

MARK GERAGOS, MICHAEL JACKSON'S ONETIME ATTORNEY: You look at everything. You've -- I'm sure that the lawyers have done a parallel investigation at the same time. So while the cops are investigating this, DEA is investigating this. My investigator is out there. I've got a team of investigators that would be out there, if they're -- if they're doing it.

The -- the thing that is going to be probably one of the -- the biggest problems for him is, I think, one of the things we can say definitively that isn't speculation is he did talk to the cops. And he talked to LAPD for hours.

If he talked to them for hours and if he admitted that he was the one who gave Diprivan -- Propofol -- as -- to Michael Jackson and if it's found in the body, the next thing I'm going to do is I'm going to want to, as a defense lawyer, get an expert in there to tell me what's going on, how did that -- how did that interact with Michael Jackson's body?

Because that is going to be exactly where somebody like Robin is going to zone in on.

And she's absolutely correct, any D.A. -- especially the DAs that I suspect are handling this case right now -- are going to take a real hard look at whether this is an implied malice murder case -- a second degree murder case. Because you're going to find doctors everywhere who've been all over saying look, you don't administer Diprivan anywhere outside of a hospital. And unless you've got a hospital setting in that -- in that house itself, that's a real problem.

And that's what's going to give me pause as the defense lawyer.

MORET: So, Trent, this -- this could be a step up, then, from manslaughter and go right to a murder case.

Do -- do you look, if you represent this doctor, and say, wait a minute, this wasn't the only thing in his system. There were other doctors involved. I was simply the guy -- the last guy there. TRENT COPELAND, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, yes. I mean, you know, the reality is, he's going to have to -- part of his defense is going to have to be, look, I'm the last man standing. I...

MORET: He even said that.

COPELAND: Yes. I am not the guy who either administered this drug, provided this drug or gave him this drug in any shape, form or fashion. And I think that's what's going to be one of the things.

You know, I think, as Mark indicated a second ago, you know, he would have his parallel investigation going on at this point. He'd have a team of -- of investigators looking to some of the very same things that are happening from the DA's perspective.

But the problem with that is, that I don't think that's happening. I mean, he's got a lawyer who's in Texas. He's got a lawyer who now, apparently, has also gotten a lawyer. And so I think when you've got a lawyer who's also getting a lawyer, I think then you've got some problems.

MORET: I've never heard of a lawyer getting a lawyer.

GERAGOS: No, I have. I have.

(CROSSTALK)

GERAGOS: And, you know, one of the problems is, somebody comes to me and says, Mark, will you take my antitrust case?

I'm not doing their antitrust case. You go to somebody else and say I want you to take on a high profile situation like this, a criminal case, in a state case -- I mean, I -- I can't tell you the number of inquiries I get on a daily or monthly basis to take cases out of state. If it's a federal case, I'll do it because generally you've got the federal rules of procedure.

But when you're talking about going in, stepping into the middle of an investigation you know very little about, you don't know the intimate culture in Los Angeles and you're going to...

COPELAND: You don't know the players.

GERAGOS: You don't know the players at all. You don't know -- you don't know LAPD, which is -- is saying something. And then you offer up your guy for three-and-a-half hours, I feel for this lawyer in Texas. I mean, he probably took that -- LAPD told him, look, you're not a target, this guy's not a target, we just want to talk to him, it's just an investigation.

Well, you know, as I tell my clients, when you talk to the -- when the cops lie to you, that's -- the Supreme Court says that's OK. You lie to the cops, that's a separate offense.

COPELAND: Not OK.

GERAGOS: That's a criminal offense.

COPELAND: It's not OK.

(CROSSTALK)

COPELAND: And, look, and before we even jump the gun on any of these other discussions, part of the analysis has got to be, look, Diprivan found in the house. Diprivan might have been given to Michael Jackson by some other doctor.

Was Diprivan found in his system?

Because, remember, Diprivan is one of those drugs that comes out of your system very quickly. So unless the test was done almost immediately after Michael Jackson's demise, unless that happened very quickly, there may not even be any evidence that Diprivan was in (INAUDIBLE)...

MORET: We're going to hit that in just a minute.

(CROSSTALK)

MORET: Also, why hasn't Michael Jackson been buried -- or has he?

We're back in 60 seconds with some answers.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MORET: We're back talking about the latest developments in the Michael Jackson case -- Ted Rowlands, we're still trying to assemble a time line. One thing we do know from Dr. Murray's own statement, he didn't call 911 immediately, like you would suspect someone would. He waited perhaps as much as 30 minutes.

ROWLANDS: Right. And he initially blamed it on the phones in the house that didn't have a direct line out. And his cell phone worked, but he said he knew how to get to the house, but he didn't know the address of the house. So that, he claims, slowed him up.

And then he had to leave Michael Jackson, apparently, and go find the chef to get help. That -- that is concerning in itself.

But again, from their standpoint, through his lawyer, they say this is a medical professional, an M.D. He knows what he's doing. He's performing CPR. He was keeping Michael Jackson alive, according -- according to his...

(CROSSTALK)

MORET: And, Carlos, the autopsy report, we're still waiting for that.

DIAZ: Right.

MORET: And these reports are still premature, to say that we know what killed Michael Jackson, because we don't.

DIAZ: Right. And you guys are all talking about, you know, when charges are going to be filed. I think the thing we have to look at first is the toxicology report and when it comes back. I mean that's, you know, even though Diprivan could be out of his system, that's going to offer up a much clearer analysis of what killed Michael Jackson.

But talking about a time line, new reports today, of course, that the EMTs showed up and they didn't even know they were working on Michael Jackson. They thought they were working on a sickly old man. It took them 10 minutes to realize they were talk -- they were even working on Michael Jackson after they got there.

And then, of course, other reports today saying today that Dr. Conrad Murray did not at all, you know, reconfirming your earlier reports, did not at all want to pronounce Michael Jackson at the house. He wanted...

MORET: He wanted to make sure he was brought to the hospital.

DIAZ: He wanted him to the hospital and kept performing CPR, which the EMTs thought were strange and they -- they said that, you know, there were reports that he was in the way a lot of times, as well.

(CROSSTALK)

ROWLANDS: -- you can look at that and say, oh, because he didn't want to get hit with it. But, on the other hand, he wanted to try to revive this guy, then he's -- that he claimed had a slight pulse just minutes before.

GERAGOS: Right. And I don't think -- I don't think for a second that that's the most -- or damning, necessarily.

Ted's point is absolutely correct. And what he's going to argue, look, you -- when you have EMTs come out, they are there basically to try and stabilize somebody long enough to get them to a doctor.

So if you've got a doctor there, calling 911 so that you can get somebody there to take him to a doctor -- the doctor is there.

If this doctor knows what he's doing and he's charged with taking care of Michael Jackson, that he's the -- he should be there working on Michael Jackson, not calling the chef or anything else.

MORET: Robin, I spoke with one doctor who told me he's seen the second autopsy report.

SAX: Right.

MORET: He says that there are 19 doctors being investigated. Nineteen.

Let's assume that even half that many are being investigated, wouldn't this doctor say, wait a minute, I'm not alone here. I'm not the bad guy, I'm just the last guy.

SAX: Well, this is the Tweedle Dee and Tweedle Dum defense. It's a lot easier to -- to point both directions. But I still think we need to go back and look at Dr. Conrad Murray's behavior, as you bring up, with the -- the phone calls.

I think there is a ton of consciousness of guilt evidence -- the failure to call 911 right away; the fact Dr. Murray was nowhere to be found at the time that the EMT actually did finally arrive -- or, I'm sorry -- actually transport him to the hospital.

There's behaviors that make you want to question. And when you have a clear ringleader or a clear evidence toward one person, it's a lot easier to start there and then start working down on everybody else.

MORET: Ted, any idea when the burial will take place?

ROWLANDS: No. The family has been very clear that they're not going to tell anybody and that they want this to be a private part of this whole equation. And, clearly, there's probably some discussion and some disagreements as to what to do.

MORET: And they're still waiting for the brain tissue to come back?

ROWLANDS: Apparently.

MORET: OK.

We have a lot more to come.

We'll be right back with more on LARRY KING LIVE.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MORET: Welcome back to LARRY KING LIVE.

I'm Jim Moret with -- from "INSIDE EDITION" sitting in for Larry tonight.

There have been so many strange reports coming out of this story, but none, perhaps, more unusual than conflicting reports about whether Michael Jackson died with or without his nose.

This is what Dr. Arnold Klein, Jackson's doctor, said to Larry, King.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP FROM JULY 8, 2009)

DR. ARNOLD KLEIN, MICHAEL JACKSON'S PLASTIC SURGEON: He came to me because, basically, I was sort of rebuilding his face, because he had severe acne scarring. He had scarring from having a lot of cosmetic surgery. And my expertise is, like it is with every one of my patients, my patients are my treasures. And I was rebuilding his face so he looked much more normal.

And in contrary to what people said, he could not take off his nose. His nose was attached. But it looked too small. And I was trying to get him ready to do the concert, because -- and the way he looked, in his face, he wanted to be absolutely as perfect it could be.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MORET: Now, one person on our panel has actually represented Michael Jackson, Mark Geragos.

(CROSSTALK)

MORET: Mark, I talked to one of Jackson's...

GERAGOS: We're not going to...

MORET: No, no, no.

GERAGOS: We're not going to go there, are we?

MORET: No, no, no, no. I talked to one of Jackson's doctors. He said this is ridiculous.

GERAGOS: Right.

MORET: Why -- what I'm going to ask you is, why do people care about this?

GERAGOS: Well, because have you seen some of the Internet stuff on this case so far?

I mean it is just the craziest thing I've ever seen.

MORET: But...

GERAGOS: And I...

MORET: But with so many important issues...

GERAGOS: They're -- they're -- well, because it's really almost gotten to the -- the point of the absurdity in -- in this. I mean this show, for instance, has been doing -- we speculate every night for the last almost month.

MORET: But and...

GERAGOS: And so, at a certain point, because there is such a -- a kind of a news blackout, anything starts to get speculated on...

MORET: But today's development...

GERAGOS: ...including whether there's a nose or no nose.

MORET: ...you'd agree, Robin, though, today's development is significant?

SAX: Yes, I -- I would agree. I mean, at least from the point of -- from the drug point of view. I don't think the nose point of view is probably the most significant story.

GERAGOS: I would agree with that.

MORET: Trent, Debbie Rowe was seen at Dr. Arnie Klein's office earlier today. We don't know the nature of her visit, whether she was actually seeing Dr. Klein.

You represent Debbie Rowe. She's seeking custody, perhaps, of two of the three children.

Wouldn't you tell her to stay out of the limelight?

COPELAND: Well, I don't know that the fact that she -- she goes to her former employer's office to pay him a visit is -- is putting her in the limelight. I don't that this woman can walk out of her -- out of her house without there being a throng of media following her. So I don't fault her for that.

But what -- what I do fault her for is making these rash statements and comments that she's made to the media, you know, when she's been angry and she's -- she's upset. I mean these aren't the kind of things you want if you want your client to appear to be normal, rational, stable, in a position to care for these -- these young children.

So, you know, look, I don't fault her for that, but I do fault her for some of those outbursts that have come and that have been...

MORET: Carlos...

COPELAND: ...principally directed toward the media.

MORET: ...in Debbie's -- Debbie Rowe's defense -- and I don't know her. However, I do know the paparazzi. She was being stalked, for want of a better term.

DIAZ: I mean, you don't know what it's like to be in a paparazzi crush until you're in one. And it is -- I mean it's -- it's dangerous at times, you know?

But I agree with these guys that I mean, when -- when you're basically -- when your character is on trial in the public eye as to whether or not you deserve Prince, Michael and Paris Jackson, you know, and when the only other video we see that week is of Paris on stage saying how much she misses her daddy and then falling into Janet Jackson's arms, you've got to be cognizant of the fact that people are going to put you under the microscope and if you -- if you physically threaten one of the paparazzi, you're still physically...

MORET: Mark is...

DIAZ: ...threatening a person.

MORET: Mark is (INAUDIBLE).

GERAGOS: (INAUDIBLE) come out of my skin. I have been in countless of these paparazzi scrum. And I tell you, it takes the patience of Job to not respond when you get some 14 carat jerkoff who's sitting in there screaming at you, something like they were at Deborah Rowe -- how much to sell your kids, how much are you going to sell them for this time, hey you fat little B, you know.

And they do that. That's what they do. They purposefully try to provoke you. And it takes all...

(CROSSTALK)

GERAGOS: ...it takes all the patience of...

(CROSSTALK)

GERAGOS: Here's somebody...

COPELAND: But, Mark, she's got to know better.

GERAGOS: Here's somebody who's in...

COPELAND: She's got to know better.

GERAGOS: I understand that.

(CROSSTALK)

GERAGOS: She was going out to get something to eat.

MORET: Yes. But she shouldn't be a prisoner in her -- in her own home.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, right.

(CROSSTALK)

GERAGOS: And what are you supposed to do when you've got people taking you apart, demonizing you?

She's got very good counsel. Eric is a -- is an excellent lawyer.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right.

GERAGOS: And I'm sure he has counseled her. And, frankly, I think for anybody to condemn her for her outburst, I think that's only unreasonable.

For whatever you want to say about her, having to put up with that paparazzi scrum on a constant basis is enough to drive anybody over the top.

MORET: Ted, the custody hearing is set for next Monday.

Is her attorney saying anything whatsoever?

ROWLANDS: No, but -- not publicly, but statements today from Katherine Jackson's attorney very key...

(CROSSTALK)

ROWLANDS: ...saying that they are moving ahead. And it looks like this is going to be resolved outside of the courtroom. And Debbie Rowe has never said publicly -- we don't know that she's looking for custody of these children by any stretch of the imagination. I think what she is doing is trying to ensure certain things happen for these kids and that's what they're working out.

MORET: Let's listen to Katherine Jackson's attorney today on "The Today, Show."

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP FROM "THE TODAY SHOW," COURTESY NBC)

L. LONDELL MCMILLAN, ATTORNEY: We do believe that we are -- we are close to reaching an agreement. And this swirling speculation is just swirling speculation.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is it a financial agreement, Londell?

MCMILLAN: The agreement is a custody agreement. This -- this -- whatever the agreement will be will not be based on money. That was not the...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But will it involve money?

MCMILLAN: The agreement about custody is not a money issue.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MORET: We'll get reaction to that and talk more about the custody issue right after this.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MORET: Back with our panel now.

Let's go to Trent Copeland. Trent, we -- we just heard from Katherine Jackson's attorney, saying they're trying to work something out outside of the courtroom. That's what the judge asked for.

That's really in the best interests of the kids, isn't it?

COPELAND: I think it is in the best interests of -- look, and I know this lawyer and he's a -- he's an outstanding lawyer. And -- and I think that he will probably try to put together some kind of an agreement where both sides can feel like they've gotten something.

And I think Debbie Rowe, from her perspective, may not be looking for custody necessarily, but she may be looking for some kind of custodial right. She may be looking so that she can have an opportunity to see these kids from time to time.

And I -- I take him at his word when he says this is an agreement that won't be based on money.

MORET: And, Mark Geragos, you've been defending Debbie Rowe tonight -- and rightfully so. She -- her lawyer has said she doesn't want money. She -- she doesn't want money. And it's really been cast unfairly toward her, don't you think?

GERAGOS: I mean, there's been -- for years people have kind of vilified her without knowing any of the facts. I don't even know the ins and the outs. I never represented him on custody. I did represent him in what was yet another of the unfounded things against him, the child protective services investigation. That was completely unfounded. Those kids were immensely -- at least the older two I saw interact with him were immensely tied to him, in love with him. He took great care of them.

The kids belong with Katherine. As I said before, if Grace is in the picture, that just gives me more confidence. That's where they belong.

MORET: We're going to take phone calls now. Right now, Houston, Texas. You're on the air.

CALLER: Hi, thank you. Does anyone know what clothes Michael Jackson might have been wearing when the paramedics arrived at his home to take care of him? Because that would be a tell-tale sign that he may not have even left the bed in the morning, and it could have been earlier that he was having trouble.

MORET: We haven't had enough speculation. Mark Geragos is almost laughing. Caller, that's actually a legitimate question. I don't know that anyone knows the answers. Ted, you were at the hospital.

ROWLANDS: We don't know what he was wearing, by any stretch. But one thing we do know is that, according to Murray, through his lawyer, Jackson was in his bed, in his bedroom, and Murray went to check on him. So one could -- he was either taking a nap or hadn't waken up yet for the day.

MORET: Robin Sax, when Mark talks about the crazy insanity surrounding -- investigators are now looking into whether employees at the L.A. County Coroner's Office illegally leaked information about the death certificate, about Jackson investigation personal files. How serious should people take this?

SAX: I think whenever someone leaks information that comes from -- that's privileged, private information that is from within an investigation -- it always jeopardized the integrity of a potential case, the future of the case. And it is something that definitely needs to be looked at thoroughly, if, in fact, that happened.

MORET: We're popular with Houston.

GERAGOS: It's a crime. It's a government code section. Whether it's a cop who does it, or somebody in the coroner's office, or anybody else, I wish they would -- what they need to do is prosecute one or two of these, and it would stop happening. As long as there's outlets that are willing to write a check for 62,000 dollars and 500 for this, that or the other thing, it's going to happen.

MORET: Another call from Houston. Caller, you're on the air.

CALLER: Hi, I have a two-fold question. First, what is the difference between second-degree murder and involuntary manslaughter? And if Dr. Murray is found guilty, what are the consequences for both?

GERAGOS: The second-degree murder is what's called an implied malice murder, which means you don't -- you didn't necessarily intend it, you did something so recklessly that it caused the death. The main difference between that and the manslaughter is the penalty. The penalty for manslaughter is two, three or four years in state prison. The penalty for a second-degree implied malice murder is 15 to life.

MORET: Our thanks to Ted Rowlands, Carlos Diaz, Mark Geragos, Trent Copeland, Robin Sax. We'll have reactions from medical professionals, including Michael Jackson's nutritionist. What does she have to say about her files and the subpoena served on her earlier this month? She'll tell us right after the break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MORET: Welcome back. I'm Jim Moret from "Inside Edition," filling in for Larry King. Tomorrow night, Larry has an exclusive interview with Colin Powell. You will want to stay tuned for that.

Joining us now are Cherilyn Lee, Michael Jackson's nutritionist. She's a registered nurse and family nurse practitioner. Dr. Drew Pinsky, host of VH-1's "Celebrity Rehab," and author of "The Mirror Effect: How Celebrity Narcissism Is Seducing America." He also sat in this chair Friday night. Did an excellent job. Howard C. Samuels is also here. He is executive director of the Wonderland Center, a drug and alcohol rehab facility. He is a recovering cocaine and heroin addict, with 24 years of sobriety. He is also a licensed therapist with a doctorate in clinical psychology.

Thanks to all of you for joining us.

Cherilyn, first to you. I know that early on -- I remember seeing you do an interview with Anderson Cooper early in this investigation. You made a bombshell statement that four days before Michael Jackson died, he called you and was desperate for Diprivan. I remember watching that, thinking she sounds crazy. Yet, within 24 hours, not only did the entire investigation turn around, but you're really, in many ways, the unsung hero of this investigation, because you directed the focus on a drug that would have probably been overlooked. How did all this happen? How did you come to treat Michael Jackson?

CHERILYN LEE, MICHAEL JACKSON'S NUTRITIONIST: I started with him in late January, actually working with his children. I had a call. Someone called and said his children had a little cold. He wanted something nutritionally for the cold. So I went in and did a complete assessment of the children.

When I finished, Michael asked me, well, what else do you do? I said, well, what's going on with you? He said, I'm a little tired. I'm getting ready for a concert, and would like to pick up my energy. I said, well, let's do some lab work. I did a full routine lab panel.

MORET: Was he healthy?

LEE: He was very healthy.

MORET: So there was nothing -- When you saw him, this is January --

LEE: This is the first of February now.

MORET: There was nothing looking at him that would make you think this guy's in trouble?

LEE: No, no organ problems whatsoever.

MORET: Really?

LEE: None.

MORET: Dr. Drew?

DR. DREW PINSKY, VH-1'S "CELEBRITY REHAB": That doesn't surprise me.

MORET: That doesn't surprise you?

PINSKY: No, not at all. If I had seen Howard Samuels at age 20, I wouldn't have been able to tell what was going on. It's very difficult to detect those kinds of things, particularly if you're using pharmaceutical substances. They're safe. That's why we prescribe them. They don't have end organ problems associated with them.

MORET: Michael Jackson specifically asked for a drug by name.

PINSKY: He asked Cherilyn about that too, which is extraordinary. She must have been shocked, if she even heard the name of the drug.

LEE: I didn't know what it was. So I called a very dear friend of mine who is based in Los Angeles, who's a friend. He happens to be a physician. This was a Sunday. I called him, since I knew he was working that day. I said, look, what is this? He explained to me what it was. I said, my goodness. He didn't know where I was. He didn't know I was with Mr. Jackson.

MORET: Given that reaction, what do you think of the report that Dr. Murray may have, in fact, been the one to give this to him?

LEE: Well, you know, if I said anything, it will be kind of speculating, because I don't know if he did.

MORET: What would you think about a doctor who gave this medication out of a hospital setting?

LEE: What I said earlier, don't do it, because it's very unsafe and no one would do that, and should not do that for money.

PINSKY: I've heard Cherilyn's descriptions of what Michael was going through at the time when he was demanding these medications. In my world, my patients complain of that all the time, exactly what she described, drug withdrawal. Diprivan would have taken that away in an instant.

MORET: Howard, imagine you're a doctor and your patient comes to you and says, I want Diprivan; I need Diprivan. Give it to me. We are hearing today, it may have in fact happened just that way.

HOWARD C. SAMUELS, WONDERLAND TREATMENT CENTER: That's the real tragedy here. Cherilyn, first of all, I have to applaud you for saying no, for taking a stand with somebody. If the other doctors in this man's life, Michael Jackson, had done that, he might be alive today.

MORET: Great point.

SAMUELS: That, to me, is the issue, is that these doctors are seduced by the rich and famous. OK? By the prestige of it, by the money of it. I've worked with clients who pay doctors 50,000 dollars a month.

MORET: On retainer?

SAMUELS: On retainer. They'll show up at the house at 3:00 in the morning. What is sad here, and what we have to do is we have to educate America. There is a crisis going on here, not only with prescription drugs, which we get at Wonderland all the time, abuse, addiction from doctors. You see the same thing, Drew. It's the same as getting heroin on the street. There is no difference. And if we don't start educating the families to be able to intervene, and to get in there when they see the signs, and do everything they can to save their loved one's life, that, to me, is what we have to try to do with this.

MORET: We have to take a quick break. Michael Jackson's controversial song about drugs is very shocking and you will hear it in 60 seconds.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) MORET: We're going to hear Michael Jackson's song in just a moment. Cherilyn, you were served with a subpoena by the county coroner. I want to make it very clear; you're fully cooperating. You're not a suspect. You're not a person of interest. You were subpoenaed, as I understand it, because you can't simply hand over medical records. Is that correct?

LEE: Correct. I was subpoenaed by e-mail, yes.

MORET: What records was the coroner interested in?

LEE: I would like to say, too, I was not only subpoenaed by e- mail, I was asked that I could also fax over the record.

MORET: Did you ask the coroner to come over in person?

LEE: Yes, and --

PINSKY: Not allowed to.

LEE: I have a copy of the subpoena stating, here's the phone number, just fax them over. I said -- you know, I called back and said, I really don't want to fax over the records. I prefer to hand- give them to you. They're very in-depth, and I don't want to fax you. The female that I spoke to, she said, I will pick them up from you. I said, I can bring them to you. She said, no, I will pick them up for you. Another gentleman showed up.

MORET: What kind of records were they looking for?

LEE: They just wanted a hard copy of what I had already stated about the Diprivan.

MORET: Drew, we were talking in the break, if Cherilyn had not come forward, when do an Autopsy, you're not going to look for Diprivan.

PINSKY: That's not on the routing toxicology screen. That's for sure. It's very rapid acting, so it could be out of the body. I wonder how they're going to even screen for it, such as it is, with them looking for it.

MORET: Howard, when you hear a doctor being linked to this substance that you can't get outside of a hospital setting -- you've got a lot of experience. You know -- you talk about doctors being on retainer. Have you ever heard of anything to this level?

SAMUELS: Absolutely not. It just goes to show the access that Michael Jackson had, OK? To be able to so seduce a doctor to be able to get this drug that isn't even on the street, nor, in my own experience in treating thousands of addicts, do people come into treatment with an addiction to it.

MORET: We'll have a quick break. We'll be back with more after this. Stay tuned. More LARRY KING LIVE coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(NEWS BREAK)

MORET: Cherilyn Lee, as Michael Jackson's nutritionist, when he comes to you and says I need Diprivan, you showed him the PDR, it's called. It shows you -- it's a dictionary, I guess. It explains --

LEE: It's like the Bible of medicine.

PINSKY: Physicians Desk Reference.

MORET: And you show him the listing for this drug and said this is what it can do?

LEE: Yes, I left his house, drove back to my office and came back with the book, because I said he is not getting it from me.

MORET: You were stunned when you saw it?

LEE: I was definitely stunned.

MORET: What was his reaction?

LEE: His reaction was you don't understand. I'm going to be monitored, so I will be safe. I see what the book is saying, but I'll be monitored. You know, someone will monitor me and I'll be safe.

MORET: Drew, I hear from Cherilyn something that's frightening. It's a patient saying, you know what, I'm OK because a doctor will be there.

PINSKY: Not OK. But when a patient asks for medication by name, dose and route of administration, there is a problem. It's not the first time. Think about it, Jim. What if someone had said, give me this medicine. You'll need cardiac monitoring throughout the night, but you'll be OK. You're going to say, I'll have none of that please.

It's happened before. Whatever patients are in a position to do that, it's an adulteration of the physician/patient relationship.

MORET: Howard, if you are hooked or you believe you are hooked on something, you look past that.

SAMUELS: As a recovering addict, I manipulated doctors. I manipulated everyone to get the drug that I wanted. That's common.

MORET: I asked one doctor, was Michael Jackson doctor shopping. And this doctor said no, doctors were shopping him.

SAMUELS: You know what, I believe that. I believe that happens with many, many celebrities in this town.

MORET: It doesn't surprise you?

SAMUELS: Absolutely not.

MORET: Do you think things will change, Drew?

PINSKY: I think this will change things. I must tell you, I've noticed some of my patients that have been receiving medications from physicians, the kinds we referred to a couple times in this program, have suddenly begin migrating, leaving Los Angeles. I thought, probably a sign the big doctors are pulling back, but they found elsewhere to go for this.

MORET: What possible reasons, Drew, could a doctor have? If Dr. Murray used Diprivan, what could he say to the authorities?

PINSKY: As a justification?

MORET: Yes.

PINSKY: The only thing I can imagine him saying -- and I don't think it's a justification -- is that this a protocol established by somebody else. But the fact is, insomnia -- there is not a medical textbook on Earth that will put Diprivan on the protocol for the treatment of insomnia. To say it is outside of common practice or off label would be an understatement. I'm sure there were other people involved in making the recommendation. He will just say, I was there to do the monitoring.

The fact is, insomnia, there is not a textbook that will put Diprivan for the treatment of insomnia. To say it is outside of common practice or off label would be an understatement. He will say I was there to do the monitoring.

MORET: Cherilyn Lee, Dr. Drew Pinsky, Howard Samuels, thank you all for your expertise.

We had planned to play Michael Jackson's song "Morphine." We apologize. We had a problem with the clip. Again, we are sorry for that. The 911 tape that raises as many questions as it answers in the Professor Gates controversy. Hear it for yourself right after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MORET: Welcome back. I'm Jim Moret from "Inside Edition," sitting in for Larry King. We're joined by Wendy Murphy, attorney for Lucia Whalen. She is the woman whose 911 call led to the arrest of Harvard Professor Henry Louis Gates. Wendy is well known as a victims' rights advocate. Earlier today, Cambridge Police released the July 16th 911 call about a possible break in at the home of Professor Gates. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LUCIA WHALEN, NEIGHBOR OF HENRY LOUIS GATES: I don't know if they lived there, and they just had a hard time with their key. But I did notice that they kind of used their shoulder to try to barge in, and they got in. I don't know if they had a key or not, because I couldn't see from my angle.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: -- Hispanic? Are they still in the house? WHALEN: They are still in the house.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Were they white, black or Hispanic?

WHALEN: There were two larger men. One looked kind of Hispanic, but I'm not really sure. And the other one entered and I didn't see what he looked like at all. I just saw from a distance. This older woman was worried, thinking someone is breaking in someone's house. They had been barging in. She interrupted me. That's when I had noticed. Otherwise, I probably wouldn't have noticed it at all, to be honest. So I was just calling because she was a concerned neighbor, I guess.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. Are you standing outside?

WHALEN: I am standing outside, yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All right. Police are on the way. You can meet them when they get there. What is your name?

WHALEN: My name is --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: On their way.

WHALEN: OK. I guess I'll wait. Thanks.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MORET: Wendy Murphy, I guess the first thing that jumps out is why does Lucia Whalen, who placed this 911 call, need an attorney?

WENDY MURPHY, VICTIM'S RIGHT ADVOCATE: She doesn't need an attorney, Jim. She called me because she wanted to know if she had any rights. People were calling her racist. One columnist said she should wear the ignominious badge of the KKK. She was feeling threatened. People were saying, we know where you live. She felt afraid, but she also said, isn't this libel? Isn't this slander? Maybe I should call a lawyer.

So she really didn't need a lawyer, per se. She wanted to know her rights.

MORET: Is she afraid for her safety?

MURPHY: She was. I think she is not afraid tonight. Let me tell you, if anything, I think she feels very proud of herself. Now that we've heard the tape, I think we should all feel proud of her. She was exemplary. The way she responded, how she was restrained. You couldn't ask for a more clear headed 911 caller. She even said at one point, I don't know if they live there; they've got suitcases.

She was excellent, if you ask me. So I think she is not afraid tonight. She is rather proud of herself, as well she should be.

MORET: She didn't even know if the person had a key. She said she couldn't even tell. She was very level headed, very calm. She couldn't see both people. And this is a key point, nowhere in this call does your client mention race, until she is pressed by the dispatcher. And even then, she is not clear about both of the individuals.

MURPHY: That's right. We issued that statement yesterday, Jim. Thankfully, the tape was released and confirmed everything we said. She never, ever said I see two black men. She never used the word black at all. She never mentioned race until asked by the 911 operator, are they white, black or Hispanic. Then she said, well, I think one is Hispanic. I didn't even see the other one.

What is important here is that she has been vilified, characterized as the racist spark that ignited the fire of hatred and so forth. Nothing could be further from the truth. If you compare her behavior to Sergeant Crowley's and Professor Gates, I think she wins the prize for the most level headed of all.

Yet, she was really the silent victim behind the scenes, the one people said, oh, she's the problem. Had they been white, she never would have called 911. Now we know that is absolutely not true. I'm glad for her that the truth is finally out.

MORET: How did Lucia happen to be there?

MURPHY: She works not too far, about 100 yards from where Professor Gates lives. She has worked there for 15 years. She is not a resident. She is not a neighbor.

MORET: She didn't recognize the professor?

MURPHY: She didn't see him. Remember, she described the other man, and his back was to her. No, she doesn't know him. She knows him perhaps the way you do, as a famous person, but didn't know he lived there, didn't know him as a person that lived on that street even.

MORET: Cambridge Police have released tapes of the police radio transmissions relating to the law enforcement responses to the case. Let's listen briefly to that.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Can you have the caller come to the front door?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She's at her house. She doesn't live there. She's a witness in this.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The gentleman says he resides here, but is uncooperative, but keep the cars coming.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MORET: So Wendy, your client makes the 911 call. Set the record straight, the sergeant, Sergeant James Crowley, says he spoke to Miss Whalen on the scene. Does she dispute that? MURPHY: Well, she does, sort of. Let me correct the record. I'll even explain to you what the police response has been. When Sergeant Crowley arrived, my client was there and she lifted her finger and indicated I'm the one who called 911. He Sergeant Crowley said, OK, stay right there, and he went into the house. That was the full extent of their conversation.

She never spoke to him, in terms of describing anybody or talking about backpacks. All she said was, OK, I'll wait right here. That was it.

So let me be very clear, she never ever said she saw two black men or any black man and she never said she backpacks. The Cambridge Police do have an explanation, Jim, but I'm not here --

MORET: I know. We are out of time. I really appreciate your coming on, Wendy Murphy. Larry is back tomorrow with Colin Powell as his exclusive guest. Time now for Anderson Cooper and "AC 360."

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0907/27/lkl.01.html

Police Execute Search Warrant at Michael Jackson's Doctor's House; Gates Arrest: Who Was Right? Wrong?

Aired July 29, 2009 - 21:00 ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


LARRY KING, HOST: Tonight, the arrest seen around the world -- the professor and police.

Is the controversy uniting or dividing Americans?

The witness whose 911 call started it all breaks her silence.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, COURTESY WHDH)

LUCIA WHALEN, 911 CALLER: I would hope that people would learn not to judge others and to really base it on fact.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: Plus, Michael Jackson and the valley of death -- the man he asked about going there is here. Deepak Chopra reveals a haunting conversation with the king of pop.

And then, Michael's personal physician, Dr. Conrad Murray, had huge debts.

Did he do anything Jackson wanted in return for a big monthly paycheck?

It's all next on LARRY KING LIVE.

Good evening.

We have an outstanding panel with us tonight to discuss the occurrences at the Harvard.

Here in Los Angeles, the famed media commentator Larry Elder.

In Chicago, Michael Eric Dyson, the university professor of sociology at Georgetown, "New York Times" best-selling author. His books include "April 4th, 1968: Martin Luther King, Jr.'s Death and How It Changed America."

Here in L.A. Is Ben Stein, the economist, former presidential speechwriter and a "New York Times" best-selling author, as well.

And also in L.A., Judge Joe Brown, who presides over the TV court reality show that bears his name. He served as a judge in the Shelby County criminal court in Memphis, Tennessee and, as well, as a reserve police officer in Memphis. Before we start with the panel, General Colin Powell, former secretary of State, made his first public comments on this last night on this show.

Take a look.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KING: Are you saying Gates was wrong?

COLIN POWELL, FORMER SECRETARY OF STATE: I'm saying that Skip, perhaps, in this instance, might have waited a while, come outside, talked to the officer and that might have been the end of it. I think he should have reflected on whether or not this was the time to make that big a deal.

But he's just home from China, just home from New York. All he wanted to do was get to bed. His door was jammed. And so he was in -- in a mood where he said something.

KING: What about those who say he brings the history into that body of a black movement...

POWELL: That may well be the...

KING: ...and the black being stopped (ph)...

POWELL: That may well be the case. But I still think that it might well have been resolved in a different manner if we didn't have this verbal alteration between the two of them.

So my first teaching point for young people, especially, not Dr. Gates, but for young people, especially, is when the police are looking into something and if you're involved in it in one way or another, cooperate. Don't make the situation more difficult.

And I think, in this case, the situation was made more difficult.

On the part...

KING: And you can ask...

POWELL: On the part of the Cambridge Police Department, once they felt they had to bring Dr. Gates out of the house and to handcuff him, I would have thought, at that point, some adult supervision would have stepped in and said, OK, look, it is his house. Come on. Let's -- let's not take this any further. Take the handcuffs off. Good night, Dr. Gates.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: OK. Larry Elder, isn't that a sound way to look at it?

The judge got angry -- the professor got angry and had some reason to get angry. It was his house. He shouldn't have gotten that verbal. He goes outside and then the police shouldn't have arrested him.

LARRY ELDER, MEDIA COMMENTATOR: Well, it's a diplomatic way of looking at it. And that is the kind of thing that one might expect from a diplomat. And I certainly agree that Gates should not have been arrested. I would no have arrested him and the officers that I've spoken with all say that we're trained to take this kinds of abuse in the academy and you should walk away.

I disagree with the pass that Colin Powell gave on Skip Gates. This officer was doing his job. By Gates' own admission, he couldn't get into his house because it had been a target of a break-in. The officer had no idea whether or not Skip Gates was, in fact, the owner of the home, asked him to come out. And Gates immediately plays the race card and starts talking you're doing this to me because I'm a black man in America, you don't know who I am...

KING: But isn't it an...

ELDER: ...you haven't heard the...

KING: ...understandable that...

ELDER: ...you haven't heard the last of this.

KING: Have you ever been racially profiled?

ELDER: Define racially profiled.

Do I believe I've been stopped...

KING: Were you ever singled out because you are black?

ELDER: Well, racially profiled means you are being singled out...

KING: You know what it means.

ELDER: ...solely because you're black.

KING: Right.

Do you ever think -- did it ever happen to you?

ELDER: I've been stopped before.

KING: Yes. OK.

ELDER: But...

KING: All right. You're unusual then.

(LAUGHTER)

ELDER: Wait a second, Larry. Let me ask a question. I've been stopped before and when I've been stopped, officers have given me a reason for why I have been stopped. Do I believe I've been unfairly stopped before?

Perhaps. But one doesn't know. There are lots of factors...

KING: (INAUDIBLE) but that's...

ELDER: ...why people are being stopped.

KING: You're taking Powell out of context. He did say that you should calm it down and never argue with a cop.

ELDER: He said perhaps Gates overreacted or something to that effect.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well...

ELDER: He had no perhaps about it. He went off on this officer unfairly.

KING: All right, but wait. You weren't there and I wasn't there.

Judge, what's your read?

JUDGE JOE BROWN, STAR, "JUDGE JOE BROWN": Let's take a slightly different tack on this. I agree with the general. I heard him last night. If you want to avoid undue drama, then, yes.

But there's something else here. The general was sworn to and did a great job of upholding the Constitution. Let's apply that.

First off, when the officer showed up, knocked on the door -- police. Come out.

No?

What's he going to do?

The Constitution doesn't give him any authority to do a thing because no officer witnessed the event. He doesn't have reasonable suspicion that there was a felony convicted.

If he had gotten in there, let me see your I.D. The Fifth Amendment says you have an absolute right to remain silent. You have no obligation and cannot be compelled to offer evidence against yourself.

Let me see your I.D.

No.

At that point, they are trespassing in the man's house unless they can show cause.

KING: Do you think he's -- he was completely correct, Gates? BROWN: I would say that it was something that was going to cause him undue drama. But I think as a citizen of a free, democratic society, sometimes we have to do things the hard way and keep the law enforcement -- the government and everybody acting appropriately.

KING: Ben?

BEN STEIN, ECONOMIST, "NEW YORK TIMES" COLUMNIST: Well, first of all, it's a story about jet lag, as the general said. Jet lag is a nasty, horrible thing. When you come back from a 30 hour trip, you're in a bad mood. Your judgment is thrown off. It's probably not a time to be making wild decisions or bad decisions. It's probably a time to take little baby steps and not to start screaming at the police.

But, you know, black people are tired of being pushed around. They've been pushed around in this country for a very long time. But police are tired of being pushed around, too. And the police don't like to be pushed around. When a policeman goes out everyday, he's taking his life in his hands. He...

KING: So the general was right?

STEIN: I think the general is completely right. He's incredibly right. Both of them should have been a lot more sensitive to the other. Absolutely.

KING: What's your read, Michael Dyson?

MICHAEL ERIC DYSON, PROFESSOR OF SOCIOLOGY, GEORGETOWN UNIVERSITY: Well, I think, look, the police are tired of being pushed around. It's amazing to me. I think that if we look at the history of interactions between African-American people and the police departments of this land, there's been a disproportionate concentration of power in the hands of the police. They've got the gun, they've got the badge, they have the ability to intimidate.

They make up stories. They create fictions. They generate narratives. They just throw down guns.

That's the history -- not most of them, but enough to make the life of the average African-American person who's stopped by them miserable.

I've had several -- unlike Larry Elder, I've had several instances where I definitely feel I've been profiled, singled out and then mistreated.

Once I was stopped with my brother, claiming that we stole the very car that my father owned. When I reached for my wallet to prove that I had the registration, the cop pulled out a gun and put it my head and said "N" -- the "N" word -- "I will shoot you right here."

Then when they ran the registration and discovered it was our car, no apology offered, got back in their car and left.

So my point is... KING: All right...

DYSON: ...that there is a history of this inequality here. And I think Skip Gates...

KING: All right...

DYSON: ...we're assuming -- first of all, we weren't there. We don't know what he said.

KING: Colin...

DYSON: But he has a right to say it.

KING: Colin Powell...

DYSON: He's in his own home...

KING: All right, Michael...

DYSON: And he's...

KING: ...Colin Powell was saying...

DYSON: I think he was absolutely right.

KING: Colin Powell was saying all right, we understand the history. We understand the anger.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right.

KING: It's completely OK to be angry. But put it down a little.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right.

KING: I mean this is a cop who teaches racial profiling and how to deal with it with the police force. Put it down a little.

Don't you feel at all, Larry, as a black man, any sympathy for Professor Gates?

ELDER: I feel a great deal of sympathy for a police officer who, as Ben Stein just now said, goes out every day and is willing to take a bullet from somebody who...

KING: No sympathy for Gates?

ELDER: ...from somebody you don't even know.

KING: No sympathy?

ELDER: Gates ought to be sympathetic to the fact that a neighbor was concerned enough to call somebody because she thought somebody was breaking into his house...

KING: So then no sympathy for Gates? ELDER: ...and empathy enough...

(CROSSTALK)

ELDER: ...to know that this officer was trying to make sure that that, in fact, was the proper owner of the home.

KING: Do you think the arrest was racially motivated?

That's tonight's Quick Vote question. Go to CNN.com/larryking and let us know.

And hear from the woman who made the 911 call.

That's ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: We're back with the panel.

The woman who made the 911 call that led to Professor Gates' arrest spoke out publicly for the first time earlier today.

Here's some of what she said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, COURTESY WHDH)

LUCIA WHALEN, 911 CALLER: I hope now that the truth of the tape will help heal the Cambridge community.

I just saw it from a distance. And this older woman was worried, thinking someone's breaking in someone's house, they've been barging in, they kind of used their shoulder to try to barge in and they got in. I don't know if they had a key or not because I couldn't see from my angle.

When I was called racist and I was a target of scorn and ridicule because of the things I never said.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE)?

WHALEN: OK. All right. I guess I'll wait. Thanks.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Bye.

WHALEN: The criticism hurt me as a person, but it also hurt the community of Cambridge.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: Judge Brown, no one can blame...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, you just heard it.

KING: She did the right thing.

BROWN: She did the right thing. No problem with her.

But did you see, I don't know whether he had -- she had a key or not.

So at what point do you say there's a burglary in process?

At that point when you approach the citizen in his home, our sacrosanct first 10 Amendments, the Bill of Rights, guarantees you security in your house.

KING: You're saying the cop was wrong?

BROWN: Dead wrong, because what would have happened is how is he going to prove it if Gates had just shut up and he had arrested him?

So you've got the man handcuffed for what?

Now, I actually had a case like that as a lawyer -- almost identical circumstances. And everybody was going through all the stuff and it went up to the Court of Criminal Appeals. And then they said this is ridiculous. This man had an absolute right as a citizen in this country...

KING: OK...

BROWN: ...to do what he did.

(CROSSTALK)

KING: Why, Ben, didn't he just say it's my house?

STEIN: He should have just said, it's my house. (INAUDIBLE)

KING: Here's my I.D.

STEIN: We're done.

KING: It's my house.

(CROSSTALK)

KING: And then he can ask you, please leave.

STEIN: Kindly leave. He started cursing at the guy. The police have a sort of written -- unwritten rule. If he -- if the guy curses at me inside his own house, we let him get away with it. If he's foolish enough to go outside and start cursing on the outside, we arrest him for interfering with an arrest or interfering with the police procedure.

But in both cases it's fatigue, it's overwork, it's lack of respect. People have just got to respect each other more. There's just got to be more respect.

ELDER: Larry, here is my -- my problem with it. When Obama had the press conference, he admitted that he didn't have all of the facts and admitted that was a friend of Skip Gates and therefore he was biased. But then he proceeds to suggest that Gates was right, that Gates was a victim of racial profiling. This is a metaphor for what's all...

KING: He took that back...

ELDER: ...what's going on...

KING: And he's now invited them to the White House tomorrow.

ELDER: ...what's going on. That's right, he did take -- he did dial it back.

KING: So?

ELDER: But a disproportionate amount of crime is committed in the black community and the victims are usually black people. There's a great deal of hostility between cops and citizens. And neither should stereotype the other. And that's what Obama should have said.

And I think a lot of people, Larry...

KING: You're -- wait. You're knocking Obama now.

ELDER: I am.

KING: Oh.

ELDER: And I think a lot of people, Larry...

(CROSSTALK)

ELDER: Larry...

KING: Where did that come from?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well...

KING: He apologized. They're both going to see him tomorrow.

(CROSSTALK)

ELDER: Well, wait a second. Why...

(CROSSTALK)

ELDER: Why should...

(CROSSTALK)

ELDER: Why should both be invited?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But, Larry...

ELDER: If I -- if I were -- if I were Crowley, I would say, Mr. President, thank you for the invitation, but you can take your beer and shove it, because...

KING: But he's going.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well...

ELDER: ...because you need to apologize to me and you need to apologize to the Cambridge Police Department...

KING: I think...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Can I jump in, Larry?

(CROSSTALK)

ELDER: ...for suggesting that I...

(CROSSTALK)

ELDER: ...I engaged in racial profiling...

KING: Michael...

ELDER: ...when I didn't do it.

DYSON: Can I jump in here?

KING: Michael, go ahead. Yes. Go ahead, Michael.

DYSON: Yes, well, here's the -- here's the thing. Obama is a principled gentleman. He wants to reconcile. He said, look, I ratcheted the conversation up. He didn't apologize, but he did say, because he still felt that the police shouldn't have certainly arrested Skip Gates, because a guy who is 5'7" with a cane is no visible threat.

I agree with Judge Brown. The moment you get in the man's house and he's inside and he's telling you, I live here -- Ben Stein said he was cursing him out. There's no evidence to suggest that.

So all I'm saying to you is that Skip Gates is saying this is my house, according to both of them. Once he shows the I.D. and proves that he's in his own house, then the police are overreacting and abusing their power.

What happened to the notion that the police -- we love them for what they do, but they are an extension of our citizenship rights. They are to protect and to serve.

Why do we have to walk around being intimidated by public servants?

I think this is the disproportionate concentration of power, in their hands -- not just in terms of race. I'm sure many white citizens feel the same way.

It's exacerbated by issues of race, but certainly, the relationship between police and American citizens has to be relieved. And I think Obama is right...

(CROSSTALK)

DYSON: ...to have this conversation. Let's deal with the larger issues.

STEIN: Wait. What is -- what -- what...

ELDER: Disproportionate concentration of -- of power in their hands?

I have no idea what that means. They -- they have a very, very...

DYSON: Well, let me tell you what it means. It means that historically...

ELDER: ...dangerous job.

DYSON: No. It means that historically, black people have died disproportionately at the hands of police people. I'm saying to you...

(CROSSTALK)

DYSON: Look at the cases that have been with...

ELDER: Michael...

DYSON: Oscar Grant.

ELDER: Michael, news flash...

DYSON: Oscar Grant in Oakland, California, who was on the ground...

ELDER: News flash...

DYSON: ...who was begging not to be shot...

KING: One at a time.

(CROSSTALK)

DYSON: ...and got shot. That's an example. Oscar Grant in Oakland, California was on the ground begging the police not to hurt or harm him. And without provocation, he was shot. There are many -- we think about brother Sean in New York...

KING: Now you get...

DYSON: So I'm saying to you, there are many cases...

KING: OK. All right, Michael, you made the point.

DYSON: ...that this has occurred. KING: You have -- you will admit that in the history of the United States...

ELDER: Yes. We know about...

KING: ...there has been a lot of problems.

ELDER: We know about the history. Of course there's...

KING: Well, you don't dismiss that, do you?

ELDER: Of course we know about the history. Of course you can't dismiss it.

KING: What else do you have?

ELDER: But this is 2009 and Professor Gates lives in a city that's got a black...

DYSON: That happened in 2008.

ELDER: ...that's got a black mayor, a governor that's got a black governor -- a state that's got a black governor and lives in a country that's got a black president. This is not your grandfather's police department.

KING: All right, let me -- I'll pick up with Ben in a minute.

Back in 60 seconds.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP FROM "THE DAILY SHOW WITH JON STEWART," COURTESY COMEDY CENTRAL)

OBAMA: I don't know, not having been there and not seeing all the facts, what role race played in that, but I think it's fair to say...

JON STEWART, HOST: That it's a complicated issue and I don't really have any comments at this time because I wasn't there and I don't know all the facts.

OBAMA: The Cambridge police "acted stupidly".

STEWART: I couldn't save him. I couldn't save him.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: There are the late night comedians having fun about all of this, but it remains a serious discussion. Both Professor Gates and Sergeant Crowley have offered their version of what happened last week in Cambridge. Each of them has defended what he said and did.

Here are some of their comments.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PROF. HENRY LOUIS GATES, HARVARD UNIVERSITY: We got to my house in Harvard Square and the door was jammed. I asked my driver just sort of to push the door through. A Cambridge policeman showed up on my porch.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SGT. JAMES CROWLEY, CAMBRIDGE, MASS POLICE: Though I didn't know at the time who Professor Gates was.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GATES: I said this is my house. I'm a Harvard professor. I live here. He said, can you prove it?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CROWLEY: I was continuously telling him to calm down during this whole exchange, because I really didn't want this, either.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GATES: And I said, why are you not responding to me? Are you not responding to me because you're a white police officer and I'm a black man?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CROWLEY: I really didn't want to have to take such a drastic action because I knew that it was going to bring a certain amount of attention. But Professor Gates pushed it and provoked and just wouldn't stop.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GATES: This officer said, thank you for accommodating my earlier request, you are under arrest. They took me to the Cambridge police station and booked me -- fingerprints, mug shot.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CROWLEY: I know what I did was right. I have nothing to apologize for.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: If this is a teachable moment, as President Obama suggests, what are we supposed to learn from it?

That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: OK. Ben, what do we learn from this?

STEIN: I think we learn that policeman are tired on being picked on by intellectuals and activists and that black people are really, really tired of being pushed around by policeman. They both have dangerous lives, especially the policemen do.

The Harvard professor does not leave his home that morning thinking he's got a good chance of being killed. The policeman does. Let's cut him some slack.

KING: Well, how do you think it -- what have we learned, Michael?

DYSON: Well, I think that, look, the history of racial profiling is real. Let's deal with that. Cops do have an extremely important and tough job. We have to be empathetic to them.

Thirdly, I think we understand that we've got to come together as black, white, Latino and other people and figure out a way that the police become an extension of our right to survive, not the forces to intimidate us.

And, finally, it took all of the pedigree of a Harvard professor and a president to go up against the authority of a police department. That tells you something about the concentrated of -- concentration of power.

Let's figure out a way to make them friendly presences in our neighborhoods and not intimidating ones.

KING: Larry, what have we learned?

ELDER: We learned that Barack Obama, during his press conference, sided with -- with Gates, when Gates implied that there was racial motivation in -- in Crowley going to his home. It did a disservice, because many people, I believe, voted for Barack Obama, in part, because he thought -- they thought that he would bring the races together and it would...

KING: What's he doing tomorrow night?

ELDER: ...and he would make a statement about how far we've come.

What he's doing tomorrow night is making a moral equivalency between what Gates did and what Crowley did. And there is no moral equivalency. Crowley was doing his job and Gates just went off on him...

KING: So Crowley...

ELDER: ...talked about his mama and all that stuff.

KING: You don't agree that...

ELDER: And so...

KING: You don't agree with people who say Crowley should not have arrested him once he knew it wasn't his house?

ELDER: I -- I said that when I first started.

KING: All right.

ELDER: They're...

KING: So that's a mistake.

ELDER: They're trained. They're trained to...

KING: You said he didn't do anything wrong.

ELDER: Well, but it's still within his own discretion. I would not have done that and most cops I've talked to -- in fact, all the cops I've talked to said that they would have walked away.

But was it unlawful for him to have arrested this guy?

Was it within his discretion?

Probably so. But I would have walked away.

KING: Judge, would...

ELDER: But they are not moral equivalents.

BROWN: See, there is one thing you're getting here away from. Had Gates been another type of individual, he would have had a right to have resisted this unlawful intrusion.

KING: Yes, you said that.

BROWN: And that would have been very interesting had he chosen to do it. Now, discretion, politeness, diplomacy -- they all have their ways. But I don't think this is so much a racial issue as it is reflective of something in law enforcement, the society, the world at large, to do things the easy way and cut corners.

What I'm offended with is this whole process -- being a learning experience has been somewhat engendered by our impetuosity. We have to know, inquiring minds, and can't wait to find out what happened.

KING: When Colin Powell says suck it up, both sides...

(CROSSTALK)

KING: ...suck it up.

STEIN: It's a class issue, too. I don't think the Cambridge police like the fancy pants Harvard professors, whether they're black, white, green, blue or yellow. The police don't like Harvard professors.

So I think when Professor Gates said, I'm a Harvard professor, that didn't make the policeman like him...

KING: It didn't help him?

STEIN: It didn't make him like him at all.

KING: Why should a cop have a (INAUDIBLE)...

DYSON: Well, you know what, had he been Henry Kissinger...

(CROSSTALK)

DYSON: But had he been Henry Kissinger and the president had been George Bush and a black cop had arrested Henry Kissinger, that -- that black cop very well may have been doing traffic duty that day. I think there would have been a much different kind of response.

(CROSSTALK)

STEIN: I know, with all due respect...

DYSON: The class issue is not...

(CROSSTALK)

ELDER: Michael doesn't know that. It's a -- it's a statement that you're projecting and you don't really know.

I live in L.A. We've had back to back black police officers. Fifty percent of the street cops are female or minority. It is not the same world.

But you, Michael Eric Dyson, act as if nothing has changed and if I don't show 100 percent...

DYSON: That's not what I said.

ELDER: ...100 percent sympathy for...

DYSON: That snot what I said.

ELDER: ...for Professor Gates, I, Larry Elder, have never experienced any bad experience...

DYSON: That's not what I said. ELDER: ...with respect to a police officer.

DYSON: You're making -- that's a straw argument.

ELDER: And that is not...

DYSON: That's a straw argument.

ELDER: And that is not true.

DYSON: That's a straw argument.

ELDER: And that is not true.

DYSON: That's a straw argument. You -- you said because Barack Obama is a black man, because the governor of the state is black and the mayor of the city is black, of course that's significant change. But that doesn't change the on the street level, where interactions between black and white people are most lethal and potentially most explosive.

ELDER: Nothing's changed.

DYSON: That's where we've got to concentrate our...

ELDER: Nothing's changed.

DYSON: I didn't say that. That's -- that's your argument.

ELDER: I'm asking.

DYSON: Significant amounts have changed...

ELDER: I'm asking. Nothing's changed?

DYSON: I'm telling you, significant levels -- significant things have changed, but things remain the same enough for us to go in there and try to fix them. That's what I'm suggesting.

KING: OK. And we shall do a lot more on this, because it isn't going away. And the two parties meet tomorrow.

And we thank Larry Elder, Michael Eric Dyson, Ben Stein and Judge Joe Brown.

Next time, try -- I want all of you to try to come forth with opinions and not be so laid back.

ELDER: Yes, a little more passionate.

KING: Gee.

(LAUGHTER)

ELDER: Not be so laid back.

KING: This whole half hour was just...

ELDER: Not be so laid back.

KING: ...a yawn.

Katherine Jackson's attorney made a move today that could affect the handling of her son's estate.

Find out what she wants, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: We're joined now by Jim Moret, chief correspondent of "INSIDE EDITION," also an attorney; and Ted Rowlands, CNN correspondent -- Ted, we understand Jackson, Sr. had a statement today?

JIM MORET, "INSIDE EDITION" CHIEF CORRESPONDENT: Yes, very bizarre. On News 1 they did an interview with Joe Jackson. Let's take a listen to it. He basically talks about Omer Bhatti, the young man that people have speculated that could be Michael Jackson's son.

The interviewer asked Joe Jackson about it.

Let's watch and see.

KING: All right, let's watch what he said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

QUESTION: So many things. But the other day was that Michael may have had another child. That's -- Omar is his name. And then everyone said, ooh, he was sitting right there next to -- next to Reba and everyone was trying to connect some dots.

Do you know that as -- as Michael's other son?

JOE JACKSON, FATHER OF MICHAEL JACKSON: Yes, I knew he had another son. Yes, I did.

QUESTION: And he -- he looks like a Jackson?

JACKSON: Oh, yes. He looks like a Jackson. He acts like a Jackson. He can dance like a Jackson. He's a (INAUDIBLE). This boy is a fantastic dancer. As a matter of fact, he teaches dancing. Yes.

QUESTION: So maybe he's the future of -- of the family.

JACKSON: I don't know. I can't say that yet, until I see it happen.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: OK. Stranger and stranger.

Jim, what do you make of this? (LAUGHTER)

MORET: He didn't really come out and say Omer is his son, but he sort of...

KING: He did not. He said looks it like a duck and it acts like a duck.

MORET: Yes. And -- and based upon what Joe Jackson has been saying lately, this is kind of in character, right?

None...

KING: But what do we do -- so what does it mean to the story -- Ted?

TED ROWLANDS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: It doesn't mean nothing...

KING: Nothing?

ROWLANDS: It means nothing to Michael Jackson's death.

KING: Nothing.

ROWLANDS: But it definitely fuels the fire on that whole speculation of Michael's life. And that, of course, is a huge part of this story and that's why we're still talking about it.

(CROSSTALK)

ROWLANDS: Absolutely.

KING: What's the latest on the investigation?

ROWLANDS: Well, they served search warrants yesterday in Las Vegas, one at Dr. Conrad Murray's home, the other at the clinic. They're looking at what they found there, which is basically computer files. They took out hard drives and they took his cell phones. They're looking at all of that. Keep in mind, this could work to his advantage. They're looking for evidence. They don't care if Dr. Murray is innocent or guilty. But they're doing a thorough investigation. What they find could help him or hurt him.

KING: All this, Jim, is speculative. What do we know now? What do we know? What do we really know?

MORET: We know when the doctor called 911. We know that, by his own admission, he waited 20 to 30 minutes. The police investigators want to know, first of all, when did he find Michael Jackson in a state of cardiac arrest? Why did -- did he deliver Diprivan? Where did he get the Diprivan? How long did he administer this?

If the doctor delivered Diprivan to Michael Jackson, he's got some serious problems. He can't deliver it outside of a hospital setting. We know that. You can't get it without a prescription. We know that. KING: Those are all ifs.

MORET: They're not ifs. Well, yes, because we don't have the cause of death.

KING: Right, we won't know that until next week.

MORET: We do have the doctor's statement to police that he gave Michael Jackson Diprivan. We know that they're looking for evidence of a homicide. This doctor has serious problems. We know that.

ROWLANDS: He may have not -- Michael Jackson may have had the Diprivan. Other doctors could have got it for him. That's one thing they're going to look at, because they do have the Diprivan, according to a source.

(CROSS TALK)

KING: The doctor gave him Diprivan. Is that a crime?

ROWLANDS: Technically, it's not an illegal substance. Was it gross negligence? Probably. Will charges be filed? Absolutely. But he could have a good excuse, if he's trained in it. If he used it a million times in his clinic, he can say, listen, I was well trained in it. I was giving it to him for X, Y or Z reason.

KING: Only anesthesiologists use it, right?

MORET: Yes, and you need certain equipment to monitor breathing. You need to monitor the oxygen level in the blood. If none of that equipment was at Michael Jackson's house, then yes it was medically malpractice. It could be criminal. It's not just a little problem. It's a big problem.

KING: Curiouser, and curiouser. Thanks, Ted. We'll be back later. Jim will be back later.

Michael's personal chef, Kai Chase, is scheduled to be on this show tomorrow night. She's also written a blog exclusive about what happened in the house on the day Michael died. And you can read it only on CNN.com/LarryKing.

Michael Jackson inquired about something that could take him to the valley of death and back. Deepak Chopra will tell us about that chilling conversation right after the break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: Joining us now in New York, Deepak Chopra, medical doctor, spiritual teacher, best-selling author and longtime friend of Michael Jackson. In Atlanta, Dr. Sanjay Gupta, CNN's chief medical correspondent, and a practicing neurosurgeon.

Deepak, you had an eerie conversation with Michael. In hindsight, you now believe he was talking about Diprivan. What happened? DR. DEEPAK CHOPRA, MEDICAL DOCTOR, SPIRITUAL TEACHER: Very casually over the phone, he just dropped a line like: Deepak, have you heard of this thing that takes you immediately to the valley of death, and then brings you right back. I said, I've never heard of such -- something like that. Perhaps you know something that I don't know, because I was unfamiliar with this.

And now, of course, in hindsight, I realize he might have been talking about Diprivan, which acts within 40 seconds of being administered intravenously. Actually, if you don't keep the patient on the drip, it also brings you back right away. So it sounds very much like --

KING: I guess it is like a kind of death. You are not conscious of anything.

CHOPRA: Yes, and according to some people, it also produces a sense of euphoria, as it takes you into the state of deep hypnosis. The problem is, and you should ask Sanjay this, even the toxicology report could be inconclusive, because the drug has such a short half life. Disappears from the blood, gets into the tissues in the brain. And unless they took that, they were actually looking for it in the beginning, the toxicology report may not help at all.

KING: I mentioned before, I had cataract surgery recently, and I had Diprivan. And I don't remember getting it. And I just remember waking up and I thought they hadn't done it yet. They had done it already. I was gone and up. Sanjay -- let Sanjay respond. Do you think it might not show up in a toxicology report?

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: I think Dr. Chopra is absolutely right. First of all, it's not a routine toxicology test. I have talked to lots of people over the past several weeks regarding this very issue. Unless they knew to check for it, because it disappears from the body so quickly, you may not be able to test for it directly.

What happens, Larry, is a few things. One is it does get stored in fat. You may be able to go back and look at the fat and test for it. Also, people who chronically use it, you can test the hair for it as well. Finally, Larry, sometimes it breaks down into various by- products, and sometimes you can test for those by-products, not specific for Diprivan. But it may give you a pretty good idea.

KING: Deepak, why would someone take it other than just to go to sleep? It's not long-acting. You'd wake up soon.

CHOPRA: It's never, ever been given to anyone to sleep. The only time it's been abused, by the way, is by an anesthesiologist. I believe there are three or four reported deaths. They are all amongst medical people, from the medical profession, who know how to administer it intravenously.

And furthermore, you have to give it as a drip. If you give it as a bullet, you come back right away as you did in your surgery. It should never be given unless you have recourse to a respirator and can intubate a person. This is most unusual.

You have to remember, though, Michael was rehearsing until midnight. Whatever killed him, he must have gotten that after midnight. Until midnight, he was up and about.

KING: Sanjay, you took your CNN viewers into an operating room to give them a first-hand look at the proper administration of this drug. Let's watch that.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GUPTA: We're here inside the operating room with Dr. Gershan (ph). He's the chief of anesthesiology here. Propofol is a medication he uses all the time. Is this it right over here?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.

GUPTA: Looks -- milk of amnesia, they call it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Milk of amnesia. Going to get a little sleepy. Give me some good deep breaths.

GUPTA: Why don't you just go and take a look at his eyes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Deep breaths, doing great. You may feel a little burning, OK?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Deep breaths.

GUPTA: Nine, eight, seven, six, five, four, three, two, one.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There's a reason for his heart rate increasing. See his eyes are closed.

GUPTA: His eyes closed.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He stopped breathing. Watch (INAUDIBLE) my wonderful anesthetist is going to help him breathe.

GUPTA: Take a look. All the breathing right now is taking place with this bag and this mask. With that medication, he wouldn't be able to breathe on his own without those things.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: More with the doctors in 60 seconds.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: We're back with Deepak Chopra and Sanjay Gupta. Michael Jackson, by the way, wrote a song more than 10 years ago, called it "Morphine," a little disturbing. Listen.

(SINGING)

KING: What do make of that, Deepak? CHOPRA: Michael was a tortured soul. If you understand the context of his life, you understand why he could have been a tortured soul. He was a loving, compassionate human being. But he also had a lot of self-loathing, a lot of shame, and also an obsession with self- mutilation, as evidenced by the surgery.

KING: Sanjay -- Sanjay, what does Demerol do?

GUPTA: Demerol is a narcotic. It's a pain medication. Some people get high by taking it, get a sense of euphoria. You can also develop a tolerance to it. I never heard that song before. Larry, it sounds like someone talking about addiction, talking about tolerance, talking about someone who wants to beat addiction. It's really, really wild to hear that.

KING: Sanjay, as a doctor, are we ever going to get the answer to this?

GUPTA: I think when we hear the final result, we're going to hear something that says, the most likely cause of death was X. Because most of the autopsy was done, toxicology has probably already been performed. It's probably going to be something that has to do with drugs, maybe a combination of drugs.

Going back to Dr. Chopra's point; if Diprivan or Propofol, which has had so much attention focused on it -- because it's just so unusual a drug, Larry. Any doctor I talked to said, hearing it abused in the home, so unusual. It may be hard to draw that exact cause and effect.

KING: Deepak, do you think we'll ever get all of the answers?

CHOPRA: I don't know. I have nothing to add to what Sanjay said. All I can say is he was so vital the night before. So he wasn't expecting to die. I can tell you that.

KING: I agree with that. That seems obvious from the way he was rehearsing. Deepak Chopra, Dr. Sanjay Gupta, we'll be calling on you, it appears, frequently.

By the way, tomorrow night, Al Sharpton and Ann Coulter go at each other over the Gates matter. It won't be dull.

Is someone about to be charged in the Jackson case? We'll talk about the likelihood of that next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(NEWS BREAK)

KING: Marcia Clark joins us, the former prosecutor, contributor to the "Daily Beast" and a legal correspondent for "Entertainment Tonight," Trent Copeland, the famed criminal defense attorney, and our own Jim Moret, chief correspondent for the "Inside Edition." He is also an attorney.

Marcia, does it look to you like a duck 00 looks like a duck, acts like a duck, criminal charges coming?

MARCIA CLARK, "THE DAILY BEAST": It sounds like this duck is about to get arrested for everything that we've seen, for probably, my guess would be, at this point, second degree murder. And the interesting thing about this case is that there's no in between. It's either going to be involuntary manslaughter, which was called a misdemeanor manslaughter, very low, or second degree murder, which is 15 to life. Big, big, long fall there, but that's the way it looks.

KING: Murder for what, Trent, for doing what?

TRENT COPELAND, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I'm not exactly sure, Larry. Look, we've had a feeding frenzy here for the last several weeks associated with Dr. Conrad Murray. A lot of people have been speculating. Look, if you give someone Diprivan, this is a lethal cocktail. This is something that will almost certainly result in death.

I'm not so sure that that's a fair assessment of what the facts in the case were. Look, most people have had Diprivan. If you've undergone a routine colonoscopy, you've had Diprivan.

Remember this, look, there isn't always a battery of medical personnel. Look, there may just be a single doctor. There may be an anesthesiologist. It could sometimes be just the doctor.

Look, when we talk about whether or not the cardiologist should have been with Michael Jackson, monitoring his heart, monitoring his respiration, monitoring his breathing. The reality is, Dr. Conrad Murray was that cardiologist. He also had oxygen tanks in the house, Larry. He also had some other breathing apparatus. We may not have seen the last of --

KING: Jim, could he have been a doctor doing doctor things?

MORET: I'm sitting in the middle, because I disagree with Trent to one extent. You can't use Diprivan in the house. I have not heard one doctor who has ever heard of it being used outside of a clinic or a hospital.

KING: When you say can't, is it a crime if you do?

COPELAND: Absolutely not.

MORET: It may not be a crime.

KING: Do you think criminal prosecution --

MORET: Yes, I do.

KING: You do?

MORET: I absolutely do. Based upon what we believe to be true.

KING: OK.

MORET: I don't want to convict this guy before he's been charged.

KING: What if the toxicology report, Marcia, doesn't show Diprivan.

CLARK: Then you're in a whole different world. For example, here's how Dr. Murray doesn't get arrested. If what you have is a cocktail of drugs, Oxycontin, mixed with Demerol, mixed with Valium, whatever, and they come from a variety of different doctors, or even unknown doctors -- those pill bottles that don't have any labels on them, for example, and you don't know where they came from -- then you're not going to be able to charge anyone, because it's Michael Jackson taking a variety of things. Good luck finding somebody to be culpable for that.

KING: Where, Trent, in all this is the patient responsible? If he scores it from different doctors, if he's wily enough, he's got friends doing it, what did the doctor do wrong?

COPELAND: Look, I'm certain that the prosecutors will invariably say, look, the reality is a doctor; his principle is guided by the principle of, first, do no wrong. The truth is that the doctor has a fiduciary duty -- he's got a responsibility to that patient.

But I think, if I'm the defense lawyer and I'm representing Michael Jackson, the first thing I'm looking for are people who supplied Michael Jackson with this, the people who enabled Michael Jackson with this. I'm looking also for all the combinations of drug interactions and how those things may have worked, or adversely so, with Diprivan.

So I'm not so certain that -- unfortunately, Michael Jackson may be dragged into this. His good name may be dragged into this as well, in terms of what kind of responsibility he had for his own health.

KING: Is all of this speculation, which is what a lot of it is, going to affect the case, Jim, if there is a case?

MORET: Yes and no. I think the fact is we will know what killed Michael Jackson when the report comes out.

KING: We will?

MORET: Yes. And you may have is a case similar to Anna Nicole's case. You didn't have murder charges filed there. She didn't die in the state. But what you did have is conspiracy and drug charges, because you know -- I've been told by one doctor there are 19 doctors being investigated in some fashion or another, and 11 different aliases, at least.

It is a crime to prescribe drugs under an alias. So those doctors, if they're involved, could face charges.

KING: Marcia, are some autopsy final reports inconclusive?

CLARK: Yes, they can. It can happen. I don't think it's going to happen here. But it can happen that the coroner can say, look, I don't see a homicide; I just see an inconclusive. I see cardiac arrest caused by a variety of causes. For example what we talked about. If you have a cocktail of drugs and he can't say any one particular one was the cause of death, then you'll have an inconclusive.

KING: Trent, should all these doctors have lawyers ready?

COPELAND: I think all of these are already lawyered up, Larry. Whether we know of it publicly or not, I think every possible outcome has been speculated by these lawyers. I think every one of these doctors who has provided some care or treatment to Michael Jackson have all got lawyers.

KING: Back with more. Marcia Clark, Trent Copeland and Jim Moret. Don't go away.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: Jim, could a pharmacy be in trouble?

MORET: That's a good question. I think a pharmacy is the ultimate gatekeeper. You have one pharmacy that has 100,000 dollars in outstanding bills, which they have admitted, with Michael Jackson. The question, should the pharmacy have noticed that too much medication was going to one person? They're out could be it was under a number of different aliases. They didn't know it was all going to Michael Jackson. So I think they have a defensible position.

KING: Marcia, what about involuntary manslaughter? I didn't mean to harm him.

CLARK: That would be if he was committing a misdemeanor or if he was acting in a lawful manner, but without due caution or circumspection. That's a two, three or four-year state prison sentence. It's what we call misdemeanor manslaughter. It could happen, if that is what they charge him with.

If, for example, as Trent was saying, he had certainly measures that he could be taking, that he was prepared to take, to counteract the Diprivan, and he wasn't as willfully negligent as second degree would indicate, then involuntary manslaughter would be the way to go.

KING: As a lawyer, if you were representing Dr. Murray, and you believed he had a good story, would you ask him to do media?

COPELAND: No.

KING: Because?

COPELAND: First of all, Larry, he has, in essence, done some media, because you can believe that those three hours of taped interviews that he gave immediately following Michael Jackson's death will, somehow or another, be released. At some point in time, we're going to hear exactly, if they were tape recording conversations -- my suspicion is they were. We're going to hear portions of that. We're also going to see some of the transcripts associated with that interview.

It can't do anything other than hurt him. He will have made certain admissions. He will have made certain statements that will almost always come back to bite him. So, no, I wouldn't advise him to do media.

KING: Jim, is he already a villain?

MORET: I think he's certainly being cast as a villain. We know that his offices and house were searched, and the warrant said they're looking for evidence of homicide, of manslaughter. We know that. The word manslaughter and Dr. Murray have been tied together.

KING: What kind of doctor is he, Marcia?

CLARK: From what we're hearing, not a very good one.

KING: An internist?

CLARK: A cardiologist. But he's been in trouble before. He's had an arrest before. This is not a doctor with a great history. The fact that they're serving search warrants on his homes indicates that they're looking for all kinds of personal conduct that may indicate he's a criminal.

COPELAND: I'm not certain he's any disciplinary reports in the medical board.

CLARK: I thought he was suspended.

COPELAND: I don't know.

KING: Why would his personal doctor be a cardiologist, not an internist. A cardiologist is a specialist. If a cardiologist is your personal doctor, you have a heart problem.

MORET: In this case, this man was a friend first, and then became his doctors. This doctor treated Michael Jackson's son a number of years ago. Michael Jackson specifically asked for this doctor. AEG didn't want this doctor. Michael did.

KING: What's the delay in the report?

CLARK: Well, there's been speculation about one reason for the delay is that it's actually done, ready to go, but that Chief Bratton is not in town, and it's not going to be released --

KING: He releases it?

CLARK: No, he does not release it, the coroner does. But that they're sitting on it until he gets back in town, back from his vacation next week.

The other possibility -- and I would do this if I was the prosecutor -- I would hold this report until I was ready to file charges or not file charges, so that it all comes out together, and avoid the speculation if possible.

KING: Do you agree, Trent?

COPELAND: I do. I think Marcia makes a good point. I would probably hold all the documents. And I would make sure that the department, the coroner's office, sheriff, police, DEA, everyone who was involved in this investigation, all spoke with one voice at one time.

KING: When does this go away?

MORET: There's too many questions to be answered before this can go away any time soon. We have to know what is going to happen with this doctor, what the cause of death is, what other doctors were involved. This is going to last for a while.

KING: Why are we fascinated with him, Marcia?

CLARK: How can we help it? It's the King of Pop.

KING: Can't bring him back.

CLARK: Can't bring him back, but it is the King of Pop. He's an icon. I also think, Larry, that there's a sociological issue here. Prescription drug abuse is the cocaine of this millennium. Remember, cocaine was all of that in the '80s. Now we have prescription drug abuse. Every adult that has health care coverage and can afford the insurance can get a prescription drug high if they want.

This is an issue that's so prevalent now. It's a big deal by itself.

KING: Pushed steroids off the front page.

COPELAND: It sure did.

KING: Athletes are thanking us.

Earlier we showed you a clip of Joe Jackson. CNN has been unable to confirm the remarks Joe Jackson made about Omar and his alleged link to Michael Jackson. And so we just wanted to go on the record to tell you that we didn't confirm what he said. You have to assume that, anyway. I don't know what he's going to say.

Thanks, guys. I'm sure you'll be back.

It's time for Anderson Cooper and "AC 360."

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0907/29/lkl.01.html

Breaking News in Investigation Into Michael Jackson's Death; Al Sharpton, Ann Coulter Debate Politics, Race

Aired July 30, 2009 - 21:00 ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


LARRY KING, HOST: Tonight, a prime time exclusive -- hear for the first time from someone who was in Michael Jackson's home the day he died. His personal chef reveals the harrowing second by second account of what happened before paramedics were called to the deathbed. Screaming, sadness, chaos -- an eyewitness account.

Plus, Ann Coulter versus Al Sharpton -- the war of words over Professor Gates and the cop who arrested him. See who's still standing after the smackdown.

And then, why is another police officer in big trouble over this whole mess?

We'll show you his shocking public remarks and get some explaining, too.

His exclusive response next on LARRY KING LIVE.

A busy night.

Our first guest tonight is Kai Chase. She was Michael Jackson's personal chef and in his home the day he died. We'll talk to Kai in just a moment.

Let's first go to CNN's Randi Kaye with breaking news on Dr. Conrad Murray and what investigators were looking for when they executed search warrants yesterday -- Randi, what happened?

RANDI KAYE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Larry, as you know, there were two search warrants executed in Las Vegas, one at Dr. Conrad Murray's home, the other in his clinic there. Well, those were filed today, so now the information on what they were looking for and what they found has been made public.

And I can tell you, according to the warrants, detectives were looking for evidence demonstrating crimes of excessive prescribing and prescribing to an addict; also, manslaughter -- evidence of manslaughter.

Now, the addict that they seem to be referring to in this case is Michael Jackson. But here's the key detail of the search warrant. It says that they were looking for any information related to Propofol or Diprivan. That is the very powerful sedative that authorities, as you know, believe killed Michael Jackson. It was found, reportedly, in his bedroom. I can tell you what the search warrant says. It says it's looking for records, shipping orders, distribution lists, anything relating to the purchase, transfer, receiving ordering, delivery and storage of Propofol or Diprivan.

KING: (INAUDIBLE).

KAYE: That is a really big deal.

I can tell what you they took. They took some hard drives. They took his iPhone. They took a couple of cell phone records. And they also were looking for any medical records or nursing notes related to the 19 aliases that are listed in this search warrant, that Michael Jackson was apparently using to obtain prescription drugs from various doctors -- Larry.

KING: Thanks, Randi.

Reporting right from the roof here in Los Angeles.

Kai Chase joins us, the personal chef to Michael Jackson during the final months of his life. She was working in the mansion where Michael and his children were residing the day he died.

Have you seen the kids since the death?

KAI CHASE, MICHAEL JACKSON'S PERSONAL CHEF: Yes, I have, Larry.

KING: How are they doing?

CHASE: They're doing great. And I saw them a couple of weeks ago. And they look great and they're playing with their cousins and having a good time.

KING: All right, you started as a chef when?

CHASE: Ooh, about 14 years ago, professionally.

KING: And they let you go and brought you back, right?

CHASE: No, no. I thought you meant all over.

KING: Oh.

CHASE: With Mr. Jackson, in March.

KING: In March.

CHASE: In March.

KING: And then they let you go and brought you back?

CHASE: They let me go and then Mr. Jackson and the kids requested me to come back in June.

KING: Now, take me to that -- that terrible day. CHASE: The morning I -- I got in to work around 8:00, 8:30. I fed the kids their breakfast and -- which is granola and almond milk -- and then proceeded to, you know, to start doing the lunch, you know, which was usually around 12:00, 12:30. So around 10:00, something like that, normally Dr. Murray usually comes down. And...

KING: He's living there?

CHASE: Dr. Murray would stay in the evening.

KING: He stayed overnight?

CHASE: He stayed overnight. And normally, he'd come around 10:00, 10:30, downstairs, to get Mr. Jackson's juices or some sort of breakfast for him for that morning.

So around that time, I noticed that I hadn't seen Dr. Murray. You know, so I'm just -- I'm thinking to myself, well, maybe Mr. Jackson is sleeping in late, you know, maybe because his rehearsal has been pushed back or something on that nature.

So I proceed, go to preparing the lunch and wrapped his lunch like Mr. Jackson likes -- you know, wrapped it in Saran Wrap and -- because he likes, you know, the -- his lunch like he is at a hotel, you know, kind of like room service.

KING: Room service.

CHASE: Yes, exactly. So around 12:00, 12:05, 12:10, Dr. Murray comes down the stairs. There was a stairwell that leads into the kitchen. And he's screaming, hurry. Go get Prince. Call security. Get Prince. So I...

KING: Prince is?

CHASE: Michael Jackson's eldest son. And he -- so I -- I drop everything that -- that I'm doing and I run into the den, which is very close to the kitchen. And I go get Prince. And Prince and I run back. And, you know, he meets Dr. Murray at the stairs. Prince stays with -- downstairs with us and Dr. Murray goes up the stairs with -- but within minutes, the paramedics are there. And the security is running upstairs, skipping stairs and all of a sudden we're all, you know, panicked -- you know, what's going on?

What's happening?

So the energy in the house had kind of just kind of changed from that happy kind of day that we were having and preparing lunch and having a good time to just kind of eerie.

KING: Well, what were the kids doing when this was going on?

What were they saying?

Were they...

CHASE: The -- the daughter, she says -- Paris, she starts screaming, "Daddy. Daddy. Daddy."

We all started, you know, crying and...

KING: You knew something was wrong with Michael?

CHASE: So we knew something was wrong.

KING: Right.

CHASE: Something was wrong. And -- and she's screaming, "Daddy," and starts crying. And then we started crying and we all come together in unity in a circle and we started holding hands. And we started praying, you know, God please let Mr. Jackson...

KING: You knew it was deadly bad?

CHASE: I didn't know what. I just had a feeling that something...

KING: You knew it was real serious?

CHASE: ...that something was very serious.

KING: The doctor first relayed that you by the way he came down the stairs?

CHASE: By the way he came down the stairs.

KING: You did not hear the 911 call, though?

CHASE: No. No.

KING: What didn't...

CHASE: I was never allowed up the stairs, you know.

KING: Oh, you never went up to his room?

CHASE: No. No, no. No. That was part of the rule of the house, you know. You had to...

KING: How did the food get up to him?

CHASE: Oh, Mr. Jackson would come downstairs and eat.

KING: He would come and eat this?

CHASE: With his children -- lunch and dinner with his children.

KING: You never went up to the upper quarters?

CHASE: No, never.

KING: Did he eat three meals a day, by the way?

CHASE: I prepared three meals a day. And, you know, sometimes he would take meals with him to rehearsal and some of the times he'd eat them here -- I mean at his home, you know.

KING: Did you see anybody remove the body?

CHASE: No. They asked us to leave -- go home around 1:30 -- 1:00, 1:30, something like that. Security had asked us to leave. And we asked if Mr. Jackson was OK. And they said we need to take him -- he's going to be going to the hospital.

KING: Did the rescue workers say anything to you?

CHASE: No. No one spoke.

KING: Did they act very worried?

CHASE: Everyone was very concerned. They were panicked, you know. No one knew. This -- it's just hurry, let's rush.

KING: Had you seen Michael the day before?

CHASE: Yes, I did. I saw him. I -- we did -- I fed him lunch, him and his children, the day before. And he ate lunch with his children at the dinner table. And then I packed his lunch -- his dinner for him to go to his rehearsal.

KING: How did he appear at lunch?

CHASE: He seemed like he was just, you know, tired. And I thought probably because of, where, you know, he's been rehearsing very -- he had been rehearsing a lot.

KING: Had he been eating well?

CHASE: When I was -- I had left in May. So in May, I don't know what was, you know, how his eating habits were.

When I came back in June, the third day in, he had asked me -- he had pulled me to the side and he said, you know, he told me, I need you. I know you know what you're doing. You do a very good job. I -- I want you here. I need you to be here. I need you to keep feeding me healthy.

Do you have my beet juice?

Do you have my organic juices, my -- my healthy food?

I need to stay healthy and strong.

He was excited about this tour.

KING: Did he eat a lot of solid foods?

CHASE: Oh, yes. On Saturdays, you know, gumbo, fried chicken, KFC, barbecue chicken, corn on the cob -- he and the children.

KING: Kai, by the way, has written a dramatic blog exclusive about what happened that day. Read it only on CNN.com/larryking. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: We're back with Kai Chase.

You have not been to the house since, right?

CHASE: No, I haven't.

KING: You saw the kids at his mother -- Katherine's house?

CHASE: Yes. Yes.

KING: Why do you think the doctor called for Prince?

CHASE: Well, I think you know, at that point, he may have -- he may have panicked. And...

KING: The doctor panicked?

CHASE: It just seemed like he was in a panicked state. You know, he called for Prince. He called for the security -- just somebody, you know, that could go upstairs -- that was allowed to go upstairs.

KING: Had you seen much of Dr. Murray before that?

CHASE: I -- I saw Dr. Murray a lot in June, when I came back. And he was there on a regular.

KING: Did that question -- did you question that at all, what is a doctor doing here?

CHASE: No. No. No. Because I knew that Mr. Jackson was rehearsing, so I figured he was -- he -- that he was there, he was employed and he was there to take care of him.

KING: Would you say he was eating well?

CHASE: I fed him well.

KING: You fed him well and he ate well?

CHASE: And he ate well.

KING: Because there are all these stories he didn't eat.

CHASE: No, that's not -- no. He ate. He ate very well. He ate organic and fresh. He's -- you know, he's -- he is into the health foods and juices and things of that nature. But he ate very well.

KING: Was he a good employer?

CHASE: He was very nice to me. He's nice. You know, he -- you know, he liked people around him that were, you know -- and in his home -- that were, you know, genuine and -- and real. I thought he was a very nice man.

KING: Did you notice oxygen tanks, because if it was Diprivan and they have to measure blood -- they have to measure your blood pressure?

They also need oxygen tanks if you're giving that drug.

CHASE: Um-hmm.

KING: Did you notice them?

CHASE: I saw the oxygen tanks, yes.

KING: Where were they?

CHASE: I would see Dr. Murray carrying the oxygen tanks down in the mornings.

KING: On that morning or other mornings?

CHASE: No. I didn't see him that morning. I saw him in the afternoon, but other mornings.

KING: He would carry them down?

CHASE: Carry them down.

KING: They were portable oxygen tanks?

CHASE: Yes.

KING: Let's listen to some of that 911 call that brought emergency personnel to the house.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) your emergency?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, sir. I need to -- I need an ambulance as soon as possible, sir.

We have a -- a gentleman here that needs help and he's not breathing. He had -- he's not breathing and we need to -- we're trying to pump him, but he's not -- he's not (INAUDIBLE)...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. OK.

How old is he?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He's 50 years old, sir.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Fifty?

OK. But he's unconscious?

He's not breathing? UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, he's not breathing, sir.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. And he's not conscious either?

He's not breathing...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, he's not conscious, sir.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK.

All right. Do you have him -- what -- is he on the floor?

Where is he at right now?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He's on the bed, sir. He's on the bed.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK, let's get him on the floor.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. Let's get him down to the floor. I'm going to help you with CPR right now, OK?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We need them to get -- we need just (INAUDIBLE)...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. We're on our way there.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

KING: Dr. Murray, his attorney has said that the delay in calling 911 was the phones in the house were disconnected.

Did you know that?

CHASE: No.

KING: Do you have any knowledge of that?

CHASE: No.

KING: Did you ever use the phone in the?

CHASE: No. No.

KING: OK. So you wouldn't know whether that was?

CHASE: No. No.

KING: The warrants to search the doctor's offices cited your name as a suspected alias for Michael Jackson.

What do you know about that?

CHASE: I was just made aware of that from my publicist, Michael Sans (ph) just recently. I think that is -- is appalling. I have no -- I have no clue what that is about.

KING: Has the police questioned you?

CHASE: The detectives came to my home right after the death because of the situation.

KING: But did they ask you anything about these prescriptions or your name or?

CHASE: No. That -- this is new.

KING: As an alias?

CHASE: No. This is all new, you know.

KING: So what do you make of this, Kai?

What's your read on this?

CHASE: As far as the prescription?

I think...

KING: The doctor, the -- the whole situation.

CHASE: I think -- you know, I don't know what to -- to make of it. I know that what, you know, the situation with, you know, the oxygen tanks and the doctor -- you know, the doctor, you know, was there, I thought, to do his job as his physician.

KING: Are you suspicious of the doctor?

CHASE: You know, I'm -- I -- I don't know what to make of it.

KING: Well, when you hear about drugs and things?

CHASE: Well, now. Now, you know (INAUDIBLE)...

KING: But you weren't then?

CHASE: No.

KING: We'll be back in 60 seconds.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: We're back with Kai Chase, Michael Jackson's personal -- by the way, did you know that he had a nutritionist?

CHASE: I was just made aware of that when I heard it on the news. I (INAUDIBLE)...

KING: Wouldn't a nutritionist talk to a chef?

CHASE: She wasn't working there when I was there. I've never met her, you know. KING: What is this box of happiness?

CHASE: Isn't this adorable?

KING: Let's see if we can get that on camera.

CHASE: It's so cute.

Isn't it cute?

This is -- Paris made this for me. The children made this for me when I came back. So it was kind of...

KING: After you had left work and now come back...

CHASE: (INAUDIBLE).

KING: ...they missed you.

CHASE: They missed me, yes. So it was a box of happiness that it contained really pretty notes and...

KING: Like?

CHASE: ...and gifts and things. So, you know, just little letters, you know, from -- from Prince, you know, thanking me about -- thanking me for the gumbo and the gifts.

KING: "Dear Kai, thank you for the gifts and the gumbo. I hope you enjoy the gift. I think you'll like it. Love, Prince Jackson."

CHASE: Yes. And then this is really cute, from Paris.

KING: "Hey, Kai, thanks for getting me apricots. Daddy loves them."

(LAUGHTER)

CHASE: Yes.

KING: Let's look at this. You -- he loved apricots?

CHASE: Oh, yes. Organic. Yes. Exactly. He was -- he was getting ready for the tour. We were -- he was eating.

KING: Would you say, just from observation, that he looked in good health except for a little tired from rehearsing?

CHASE: You know, he looked very well to me in April. Yes, he did. He -- you know, I remember one -- one evening, he came downstairs, I mean, dressed nice. He had on his black jeans, straight leg and a black blazer, his black aviator glasses and his cell phone. And he comes downstairs and he says, to me, he goes: "Do you look like Dionne Warwick?"

And I said to him, I was like, "Oh, my goodness. Do I do love her? Yes. I have the same album you have at my house."

He gives me a thumbs up. Burt Bacharach all the way. So he was a charming man. I loved him.

KING: More with Kai Chase after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: We're back with Kai Chase.

A custody deal for Michael's children was announced today. Katherine gets full custody. Debbie Rowe will have visitation rights.

What's your read on that?

CHASE: I think that's wonderful. Katherine and the kids -- that's beautiful. I mean I saw the interaction with them when I went to the home. And they -- they love their grandma, you know. They've got this wonderful -- and I think Debbie Rowe should see and raise her children.

KING: Did the kids ever talk about Debbie?

CHASE: No. They never, never did.

KING: Did you meet Debbie?

CHASE: No, I have never met her.

KING: But being the biological mother, you feel it's OK for her to have visitation?

CHASE: Of course. Absolutely.

KING: This tie with Katherine, how strong?

CHASE: Well, you know, the -- their -- Michael loved his mother, you know. And the children obviously love their grandmother. He spoke very highly of his -- of his mother. And it's a beautiful -- it's a beautiful bond that they have together. You know, she's loving. They love her.

KING: Did he ever have any health complaints?

Did he ever say I'm not feeling well or I have some chest pains or something is not right?

CHASE: No. Never anything like that. I -- I remember one day -- the third day I was there, when I came back, he had told me, you know, they're killing me. They're killing me because I'm working too much. I'm rehearsing too much.

KING: Who was they?

CHASE: I'm assuming whoever, you know, (INAUDIBLE).

KING: The concert people?

CHASE: (INAUDIBLE) possibly. He was -- he was rehearsing a lot. You know, I need to eat healthy. I need to stay strong, you know. I'm tired, you know. So, you know, keeping...

KING: So he complained?

CHASE: Just that one day to me.

KING: Was he looking forward to England?

CHASE: Oh, yes. Oh, absolutely. We all were. He was looking forward...

KING: Were you going to go?

CHASE: Yes. He -- he had Prince -- you know, Prince, his son, came and told me one day, daddy wants me to tell you that he wants you to go to London. And I said, well, please tell your daddy I said thank you and I would be honored. And the kids started jumping up and down -- you know, yes, Kai is going to London.

And then we started talking about bringing, you know, video games and stuff to the private jet. And it was just, you know, he was very excited about going on this -- doing this tour. This is his comeback.

KING: Did you cook for Dr. Murray?

CHASE: I would prepare meals for Dr. Murray in the evening with Mr. Jackson's meals before I left the home.

KING: And what was he like?

CHASE: Dr. Murray was -- he seemed very nice. He seemed like a nice man. He'd come, we'd talk. He'd -- he would bring -- you know, in the mornings he would get Mike -- Mr. Jackson's juices -- maybe one or two, maybe a mango or papaya juice or a beet juice or both. And he'd take them upstairs and he'd make sure that he ate. He had dinner with the family. I served them, you know.

He seemed like a nice man.

KING: Was he a late riser, Michael?

CHASE: Mr. Jackson -- it just -- it depended, you know. But he -- he would -- he would make sure that he would have lunch with his children.

KING: With his children?

CHASE: With his children.

KING: And their interaction was good?

CHASE: Oh, absolutely. You know, I would bring the dinner -- the lunches and set them on the table and they'd all come in and sit, close the door and they'd dine privately. And you would just hear laughter and story telling and just beautiful things. He's -- those were his babies.

KING: Why are you come forward now, Kai?

CHASE: I don't know if I would call it coming forward. I just think that, you know, I just want to -- to tell the fact that Mr. Jackson, he ate. He loves -- he loved food. And he was excited about this tour. (INAUDIBLE).

KING: So that's a good thing to clear up, that he wasn't some kind of anorexic.

CHASE: I never saw that. I saw the man eating.

KING: When you saw the tape of the rehearsals, did that impress you?

CHASE: Oh, absolutely. You know, it was like a light switch went on and he's there. You know, he's -- he's amazing. He's an entertainer.

KING: So this, to you, is a double shock?

I mean it's a -- there's -- you can't even express it, can you?

CHASE: Right.

KING: Seeing him like one second and the next second gone.

CHASE: Absolutely. It was very devastating, very devastating. You know, it was just unreal.

KING: Thank you, Kai.

CHASE: You're very welcome.

KING: Thanks for coming here.

CHASE: Thank you, Larry.

KING: Next, Al Sharpton and Ann Coulter.

Do I have to add anything?

Stick around.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: Joining us now from West Palm Beach, Florida, Ann Coulter, the syndicated columnist, conservative commentator, number one "New York Times" best-selling author. Her newest book is "Guilty: Liberal Victims and Their Assault on America."

And in New York, Reverend Al Sharpton, president and founder of the National Action Network, noted civil rights leader and a syndicated radio host.

All right, the statement was issued today from the White House concerning the meeting that took place earlier between the sergeant, the president and the professor: "I am thankful to Professor Gates and Sergeant Crowley for joining me at the White House this evening for a friendly, thoughtful conversation. Even before we sat down for the beer, I learned that the two gentlemen spent some time together listening to one another, which is a testament to them. I've always believed that what brings us together is stronger than what pulls us apart. I'm confident that what has happened here tonight. And I'm hopeful that all of us are able to draw this positive lesson from this episode."

Ann Coulter, do you think that will put it away?

ANN COULTER: I don't think it should. And, also, by the way, I think it was a little racial profiling with the president assuming the Irish cop would like to drink beer. No Chablis here. That's a little stereotyping.

But, no. I mean I think it is a teachable moment. But the -- but the teachable moment needs to go to Barack Obama and to Henry Lewis Gates.

We have one case after another of these, where -- where there is an assumption of racial profiling or racism by cops or by teachers and you have one hoax after another -- from Tawana Brawley to the Duke lacrosse case.

And if we're going to claim that there is this -- this rash of racial profiling in America, you know, eventually there's got to be one real case of it.

KING: All right.

Al, how do you counter?

REV. AL SHARPTON: Well, first of all, I think that you must deal with the fact that what the president did tonight was absolutely the right thing to do, to set a tone and a climate so we can go forward and deal with both what police are dealing with in terms of trying to fight crime in their field and what people have to deal with documented cases of racial profiling.

There are 23 states that have laws on racial profiling. There have been any number of states that have studied and documented it. To say that they are all hoaxes is Ann, you know, being Ann.

I think the fact is that when you see almost half the country dealing with this, the state law, even the Justice Department under President Bush documenting the differences in terms of arrests and in terms of stops and searches.

KING: But is the...

SHARPTON: I think now we have a climate to deal with it. KING: And the question is, was this racial profiling?

The other night on this show Colin Powell said, looking at both sides, he said that the professor was wrong for getting angry. It's a cop. You listen to the cop. The cop was wrong for arresting him.

Are you saying, Ann, that there is no racial profiling?

Are you saying that doesn't exist?

COULTER: I'm saying that probably everything under the sun exists at one point or another. Whether this is a crisis or an academic...

KING: No, that's not the question.

COULTER: Right.

KING: Does racial profiling exist?

COULTER: But -- no, I do not think that there is an epidemic of racial profiling. I think there is an epidemic of -- of claims of racism that turn out to be a hoax.

I mean, like I say, you go back to Tawana Brawley. There was also the case of the Exeter kid, Edmund Perry, I think his name was...

KING: But because those were hoaxes...

COULTER: ...and that...

KING: ...are you saying that, therefore, there is no racial profiling, because they may not have been...

COULTER: Well, all of...

KING: ...been racial profiling?

COULTER: Well, all of the big...

KING: You can't.

COULTER: ...all of the big cases that were released to us and -- and Bill Clinton citing a racial incident that was known to be a fraud in his Democratic acceptance speech at the Democratic National Convention in 1992. There was the Kiko Garcia case in New York, allegedly racial profiling, shot a kid. It turns out he's holding a machete. He was turning.

KING: Yes, but do you think...

COULTER: (INAUDIBLE) a gun.

KING: I think the question -- before I come back to Al, Ann, do you think it's possible that a black man in America last night might have been stopped by someone -- by a policeman just because he was black?

COULTER: I think it's possible that a man bit a dog yesterday. But if I keep hearing about man biting dog stories, I want to see one real one. What we have is dog bites man stories. We're told every time the man bites a dog, it turns out to be false. What you hear is well, OK, this one wasn't true. But there are all the other ones.

KING: Sergeant Crowley spoke to the media after he had the beer with the president and the professor. Here's a little bit of what he said and then we'll have Al comment.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SERGEANT JAMES CROWLEY, CAMBRIDGE POLICE DEPT.: What you had today is two gentlemen that agreed to disagree on a particular issue. I don't think that we spent too much time dwelling on the past. We spent a lot of time discussing the future.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: What did you make of that, Al? Good idea?

SHARPTON: Well, I think it's a good idea, particularly of now, those in law enforcement and those that are involved in fighting for these cases can come together and sit with those in government and try, in this climate of trying to deal with what is fair and equal for all, do that. I remember when Janet Reno had began that. I would hope that Eric Holder and others picked that up.

And I think that the fact of the matter is there are clear cases that have to be dealt. I mean can you go from Rodney King to Abner Louima and on and on where people went to jail. I'm not going to get in this argument with Ann. Clearly, 23 states are not hallucinating racial profiling.

And Colin Powell said on this show the other night, talking about his own experiences going to account. So all of these people are not making this up. To go 23 years ago to Brawly -- I mean try to find something this century, Ann. We're talking about a problem --

COULTER: The Duke Lacrosse case.

SHARPTON: Well, the Duke Lacrosse case was not about profiling. That was about a report. You maybe need to find profiling -- but the racial profiling -- racial profiling is when there is an assumption made, based on race, when there is no one that is called in the report. And I think maybe if you understood the definition, you could not deny it.

KING: Al, do you think it's possible -- do you think Colin was right when he said the professor over-reacted?

SHARPTON: The question becomes -- that's why you need to have law enforcement and all these forces sit. The question is what is over-reaction in your own home? We need to define that. Is it possible? Sure. What we need to do now is deal with the law. If you're in your house, someone comes to your door; you think it's the repairman; it is not; they order you out of the house; However you respond, is that over-reaction?

The fact of the matter is what we do know is the prosecutors said we're not going forward with this case. This is interesting to me. The police unions, Larry, were mad at the president. They never questioned the prosecutors' decision, saying we're not going forward, which meant what undermined the arrest was not the president, not those that supported Dr. Gates, like me, but the prosecutors.

KING: Ann, on the other hand, if it's your house and -- forget racial. It's your house. They're questioning you about your own house. You would be ticked?

COULTER: In fact, I have been -- at least in the initial crankiness by Professor Gates, I've been somewhat of a defender of his, in as much as I'm someone who travels a lot. I get a lot of -- I get cranky, too, especially after a long trip from China.

What can't be defended, I think, is the next 48 hours, the next week, when he could calm down and think, oh boy, I over-reacted. Wish I hadn't done that. But I think that is a problem. Both aggrieved minorities and aggrieved females are told to take every slight, interpret everything as it's because your black. It's because you're a woman. I don't think that's good for blacks or females. I don't think it's good for the rest of the country.

And there is one thing I'd like to say about the studies on racial profiling, and even the Bush administration coming out with them. The Bush administration itself suppressed a study that disproved eight billion racial profiling studies about the New Jersey State Troopers. There was a scientific study setting up cameras of people speeding. It turns out New Jersey State Troopers, by scientific evidence that was -- the Bush administration kept rejecting and rejecting -- were stopping, if anything, not enough blacks.

SHARPTON: So you're saying, Ann --

KING: Hold it. Hold it.

(CROSS TALK)

KING: By the way, who you are more likely to agree with, Ann or Al? I think they disagree. Go to CNN.com/LarryKing and have your say.

And, by the way, the Boston police officer who is in hot water over all this, he'll be with us in a little while. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: We now have a statement just released by Professor Gates. He says, "having spent my academic career trying to bridge differences and promote understanding among Americans, I can report that it's far more comfortable being the commentator than being commented upon. At this point, I'm hopeful that we can all move on, and that experience will prove an occasion for education, not recrimination. I know that Sergeant Crowley shares this goal."

Do you agree with that, Ann?

COULTER: Yes, though I don't want to move on quite so fast. One other point that I mentioned in my column this week, up on my webpage, is what if Sergeant Crowley had not been the model policeman, who taught diversity classes, who had given mouth-to-mouth resuscitation to a famous black athlete? What if, at some point in his career or in his life, he had been accused, falsely or not, of racism? His life would be ruined right now. We know this wasn't a case of racism. We know that now. But we --

KING: What's the point?

COULTER: Only because he's a model policeman that case fell apart, and all of the usual race mongers are saying, let's move on. Let's move on. I don't want to move on so fast as long as long as they brought it up.

KING: Al, do you resent that statement?

SHARPTON: No. Because I -- you know, Ann is Ann. I think that the fact is that only case that fell apart was the case against Dr. Gates. Dr. Gates was the one arrested and charged. That's the case that fell apart. I don't know what case she's talking about against the officer. That's one.

Secondly, I think many of us said, on my web page, NationalActionNetwork.net, that if this is a question of police over- stepping their bounds and arresting him because there was no crime or racial profiling, we wanted an investigation. There's no race mongering to ask for an investigation on why a man was arrested in his own house, when there was apparently no crime.

But I think what the president has done -- and I think it's important that we don't go past this -- is to get the disagreeable parties to say, we can disagree. No one backed down from what I saw tonight. We could disagree without being disagreeable. He got that with -- he has the union sitting with Wal-Mart on that with health care. He had Newt Gingrich and I sitting in his office talking about education together.

The climate, Ann, in America is no longer to start arguing and screaming and saying, even the Bush administration is covering up. The climate is, let's sit down and say we disagree. Now let's solve the problems, even though we disagree. I hope you learn to do that, Ann.

KING: Ann, you couldn't possibly disagree with him sitting down, could you?.

COULTER: No. No. Not at all. Could I just say two things about the disorderly conduct charge? I will bet you more than any -- it's just a misdemeanor. I will bet you, more than any other arrest, those are dismissed or not brought to trial, because the idea is if somebody is ranting and raving and behaving irrationally, the cop can't just walk away. If the person behaving irrationally then goes off and hits his girlfriend or something, who is to blame for that? The cop.

So a lot of it is just to get the angry guy out of the situation. They go to jail. The charges are dismissed. and not brought to trial. If somebody is ranting and raving and behaving irrationally, the cop can't just walk away. If the person behaving irrationally then goes off and, you know, hits his girlfriend or something, well who's to blame for that? The cop.

A lot is to get the angry guy out of the situation. They go to jail, the charges are dismissed.

And moreover, in this case, Gates' own lawyer said it was dismissed because of connections. I wouldn't be waiving around the dismissal as proof that it's a bad arrest. Crowley is certainly backed by the entire police department and by the law in Massachusetts.

SHARPTON: If the police department thought it was connections, then I'm sure they would have in the press conference condemned everyone else, have condemned the prosecutor. And I'm sure that there are many disorderly conducts that go to trial. He was detained for hours and the charges weren't dropped for four days. I assume because they investigated the case.

But, beyond that, I think we've got an opportunity to really heal in this situation. Where now you have Crowley, who I disagreed with, but to his credit stood up to night. You have Professor Gates. And they said let the dialogue begin. The president has set a healthy climate. I think now we'll see if responsible people on both sides will sit down in that climate and make change happen.

KING: Let me get a break here. By the way, Ann and Al, we'll come back and discuss some other things. They're coming back. So are we in 60 seconds.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: It's time for tonight's this week CNN hero. His name is Brad Blauser and he's helping some of the most desperate children in Iraq. I asked him what made him take action. His answer was a little shocking. Watch.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BRAD BLAUSER, FOUNDER, WHEELCHAIRS FOR IRAQI KIDS: Larry, I was working as a civilian contractor in a supply warehouse in Mosul. In my off hours, I was friends with a number of the soldiers. One of the soldiers asked me if I could help him locate some children's wheelchairs. He was Major David Brown. And he would go out in the city on medical missions, and he would see children either dragging themselves on the ground or, during his missions, he would see parents bring him children and ask them for medicine for the kids to help them. And there was obviously no way to help.

I saw him the next day, and I asked him if there was anything I could help him with. He asked me to help him find children's wheelchairs. At that time, we sent out a request on my email to friends and family back home. In 30 days, we had 31 children's wheelchairs on ground.

KING: It is true nearly 650 wheelchairs have been distributed to this point?

BLAUSER: That's right, 650 children's pediatric wheelchairs from Reach Out and Care Wheels have been provided. Also, 240 small adult wheelchairs and adult wheelchairs have been provided from Worldwind International in San Francisco.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: Thank you, Brad, for improving the lives of children and making our world a better place. Our hero of the week. Next, the Boston police officer in big trouble after jumping into the dust over the Gates arrest. He's here right after the break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: Joining us now in Boston is Officer Justin Barrett and his attorney, Peter Marano. Officer Barrett was placed on administrative leave from the Boston Police department after referring to Professor Henry Lewis Gates as a "jungle monkey" in a mass e-mail. He's also been suspended from his military duties as a captain in the National Guard. The e-mail was sent in reaction to a "Boston Globe" article about the Gates-Crowley incident. It went to friends in the National Guard.

We want to read a few excerpts. Warning, some might find this offensive. "If I was the officer he verbally assaulted like a banana eating jungle monkey, I would have sprayed him in the face with OC, deserving of his belligerent non-compliance. I'm not a racist. But I am prejudiced toward people who are stupid and pretend to stand up and preach for something they claim is freedom. Gates is a god damn fool and you, the article writer, simply a poor follower, and, maybe worse, a poor writer. Your article title should read, conduct unbecoming a jungle monkey, back to one's roots."

Officer Barrett, what were you thinking?

OFFICER JUSTIN BARRETT, SUSPENDED FROM BOSTON POLICE DEPARTMENT: Yes, Larry, I'd like to take this opportunity to offer fellow police officers, soldiers and citizens my sincerest apology over the controversial e-mail I authored in response to Ivon Abraham's editorial in the "Boston Globe." My choice of words, Larry, was lacking.

I failed to think through the perception others may have based upon what I wrote. I failed to realize the potential, through the use of words, that others would see as offensive. I am not a racist. I did not intend any racial bigotry, harm, or prejudice in my words. I sincerely apologize that these words have been received as such. I truly apologize to all involved, Larry.

KING: Do you think, Justin, you deserve to be suspended based on it?

PETER MARANO, ATTORNEY: Larry, if I can answer --

KING: Go ahead, Peter.

MARANO: On behalf of Justin, there is -- suspension in this circumstances they needs to be addressed by an impartial body. Is Justin willing to accept a punishment commensurate with what has occurred in a proportional sense? Absolutely. There is a process that does need to be followed.

Listening to some of your other guests tonight, we're talking about how, as a whole, this country can move on and learn from this episode that's occurred. Justin is stepping into this event between Professor Gates and Sergeant Crowley and what occurred. It was a poor choice of words and not a well thought out sense of what he was doing when he did it.

And as long as, at the end of the day, the proportionality is what we need to look at, what the punishment will be.

KING: Officer, what upset you so much -- as you say, you're not a racist -- to be so vitriolic in the e-mail?

BARRETT: Right, Larry. I read the article. I read the editorial written by Ivon Abraham in the Globe. It seemed like it was biased. It did not show the roles and duties of a police officer and how dangerous it already is without having a debate about people getting in a police officer's face, which should never happen at any call.

Police officers have a dangerous job, and I just felt that the article was one-sided and really didn't show justice to what police officers face on a daily basis when they have a tough job to do. Then they have to go home to provide for their families. They work a lot of hours per week to provide for their families.

KING: What made you come up with that language, though?

BARRETT: Larry, I don't even know. I couldn't tell you. I have no idea. I can say there that was no intentional racial bigotry on prejudice by my words. I did not intend that. I treat people with dignity and respect.

I was in Iraq. I work on the streets of Dorchester. I work with people who are in positions that they're stressed out and need help. I have treated people with dignity and respect, on the job, off the job, in Iraq, in the city of Boston. That's what I've done. I continue to treat people with respect.

KING: Have you used those words before, officer?

BARRETT: No, I've never used those words before.

KING: So you were pretty angry?

MARANO: Larry, I --

KING: You want to say something? Go ahead.

MARANO: I do. I want to speak out a little more on Justin's behalf, that his angst and anger that was portrayed -- it wasn't portrayed. It was what he wrote in this e-mail. It was directed towards behavior, not well thought out, not placed well. He's recognized the severity of what's occurred because of this. This is a young man who's never had a disciplinary issue at all in his career, in 16 years in the Army National Guard, or in the last two and a half years with the Boston Police Department.

It was probably the biggest lapse of judgment that he had, and the poorest choice of words he could make. One e-mail is making a judgment on his entire life and all of what --

KING: I've got you, Peter. He's humbled himself tonight. He's come forward, formally apologized. I don't know what more he could do. Maybe we could all seek a little forgiveness. Thanks, Justin. We'll keep in touch on this. Peter Marano as well.

(NEWS BREAK)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: Before we get into another political issue, let's go back to Ann Coulter and Reverend Al Sharpton. Start with Al this time. What did you make of Officer Barrett?

SHARPTON: I think it is outrageous for someone to say that calling someone a monkey-eating -- a banana-eating monkey is not racist. Absolutely it's a racist term. And to ask for forgiveness -- but then don't forgive me for saying something racist, because I didn't say anything racist -- forgive me if you took it that way is absurd.

I'm the most forgiving guy. I forgave a white male for stabbing me at a march. He said he was wrong. He is saying he's not racist. And the frightening thing, Larry, which is why we need laws, is that they're going to entertain putting him back in the streets, and we are supposed to trust someone with these feelings to protect the public?

KING: Ann?

COULTER: I think that's what all attorney-formulated apologies sounds like. I think you have two people, a white man, a black man, both of them lose their tempers, do something highly immature. One berates a cop. One berates a reporter. Which one is on TV abjectly apologizing and begging for mercy? SHARPTON: Are you comparing Dr. Gates saying something in his home about why are you bothering me with a man calling someone a banana-eating monkey? Is that what you're trying to do, Ann?

COULTER: There are differences that cut both ways, Reverend Sharpton. One -- by the way, it was more than what are you doing here? He's screaming at the cop, you're a racist.

SHARPTON: He did not call that man a racist term.

COULTER: And the black cop --

(CROSS TALK)

KING: One at a time, one at a time, guys. Ann.

COULTER: It was my turn there. He was screaming, berating the cop, calling him a racist, the I'll talk to your mama outside, walking out. The black cop and the Hispanic cop totally backed up Crowley. I wouldn't say it is worse. I do think the e-mail language is worse certainly.

SHARPTON: Can I say something?

COULTER: It's nothing like wasting a cop's time. Gates is wasting police resources.

SHARPTON: You know what is worse, Ann? This is what the argument's about. What's worse is this a policeman. No one is going to depend on Dr. Gates to protect their family. No one is going to depend on Dr. Gates to respond to a 911 call.

You're asking people to depend on this man, to respond to them when he, in a moment of anger, sees us as banana-eating monkeys. We wouldn't call on Gates to our house. We'd call on this man if we lived in Boston. That's the difference. That's a lot more serious, Ann.

COULTER: If a 911 call came in when Gates was wasting the time of half a dozen police involved.

SHARPTON: Come on, Ann, Ann --

(CROSS TALK)

SHARPTON: The difference in who they are more striking. This man is upheld by the state, given a gun to protect people. That's his feeling. Dr. Gates, right or wrong, is not in that position.

KING: We were going to discuss in this segment -- we're running out of time -- other political issues. I'm going to invite both of you back, hopefully next week, to discuss a lot of issues. One day I'd love to see a conservative say that he agreed with the professor and a liberal say he agreed with the police officer. That would be a historic night.

Anyway, thank you both very much.

I would now like to acknowledge a couple of special guests from Portsmith, Arkansas tonight. Lisa Kneehaus (ph) is the winner of our remarkable question contest. She and her seven-year-old son Alex are here in the house tonight. There they are .

We want to congratulate Lisa and Alex. Great having you here. Congratulations on a great entry, winning the contest, the trip here to Los Angeles, a chance to see this show. Could be one of the highlights of your week.

Anyway, here now is Anderson Cooper and "AC 360." Anderson?

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0907/30/lkl.01.html

Who Was the Real Michael Jackson?; Will Judge OK Jackson Custody Deal?

Aired July 31, 2009 - 21:00 ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


JIM MORET, GUEST HOST: Tonight, exclusive -- who was the real Michael Jackson?

His protege, who lived at Neverland, reveals what she knows about Michael's kids, his relationship with other children and the boy named Omar.

Is he the pop star's secret son?

Then, shark scare -- will you go in the water knowing this out there?

Meet the people who dared to take a dip and came face-to-face with a mouthful of daggers. They survived and they're here to share their death-defying stories next on LARRY KING LIVE.

I'm Jim Moret from "INSIDE EDITION" sitting in tonight for Larry King.

Our first guest is Nisha Kataria.

She was a protege of Michael Jackson and lived at Neverland back in 2003. She's recorded a duet with Michael and is an artist in her own right, joining us tonight live from Atlanta.

Nisha, thanks for joining us.

NISHA KATARIA, LIVED AT NEVERLAND, RECORDED WITH MICHAEL: Thank you so much for having me.

MORET: Tell me about meeting Michael Jackson, how that came about.

KATARIA: Well, Michael Jackson's manager got a hold of my demo and he listened to my track, "I Will Always Love You," originally done by Whitney Houston. And one day, they were sitting in Neverland, him and -- him and Michael. And he played Michael my "I Will Always Love You" song. And Michael said wow, who is this girl?

Can you call her?

And so the next thing you know, we drove to California to meet Michael. And I met him. The very first time I met him, he had a big smile on his face and he was very, very friendly and gave me a hug. And Prince and Paris and Grace, the nanny, were all in the room and they all gave me a hug. MORET: You -- you were living in Phoenix at the time, right?

KATARIA: Yes. We lived in Phoenix and we drove over to California to meet him.

MORET: So did you go to Neverland to meet him?

KATARIA: Yes. We drove into Neverland. And I remember just seeing the big Neverland Ranch sign when you enter Neverland. And you feel him, but I hadn't seen him yet. And I was just so nervous. But he -- he had the biggest smile on his face the moment he walked into the library in house to meet me...

MORET: And for those who haven't...

KATARIA: ...for the first time.

MORET: For those who haven't been there, those gates are kind of intimidating and you drive through and then it's still a long way until you actually get to the house.

KATARIA: Yes.

MORET: What was it like?

Describe that first meeting for us, if you could, and your impressions of Michael Jackson?

KATARIA: Well, like he was -- he's the biggest star in the universe, the most recognizable man on this planet. And I was just super nervous to meet him.

But he came in with a huge smile on his face. And Paris and Prince came in and they introduced themselves to me. And they were about to shake my hand and Michael said, no, we don't shake hands in this family, we give hugs. So they all gave me a hug.

And then Michael sat down and I sat down and we just started having a nice conversation. And then he told me -- he asked me if I could sing for him.

And then I stood up and I asked him, Michael, what would you like to hear?

And he said, "Will you sing "I Will Always Love You?""

And I sang him that acapella. And the first thing he told me was, "Nisha, you have the voice of an angel." So I mean it meant...

MORET: You...

KATARIA: ...the world coming from him.

MORET: Nisha, you eventually moved in for a short time, didn't you, to Neverland? KATARIA: Yes, I did. He decided that he wanted to record with me. So me and my mom kind of moved into one of the guest units and lived there.

MORET: And what was that like?

What was it like to live at Neverland?

It's -- it's been described as so many different things -- part playground, fantasy land. There were statues all over. There were -- there were -- there was a zoo there.

What was living there like?

KATARIA: Every morning when we would open our windows in our guest house, we would look at the lake. And there were two elephants being bathed in the lake. And there's music playing throughout the ranch, so you feel like you're in a movie. And there was actually a movie theater and everything you could ever dream of is at the ranch. It was just one of the best experiences of my life living there.

MORET: How long did you live there?

KATARIA: A little over two months.

MORET: And you recorded with Michael Jackson?

KATARIA: Yes. We recorded a song that he wrote and we recorded it in his private studio in the ranch.

MORET: Do you expect that that song will ever be released?

KATARIA: I really hope so. We're talking about maybe making a special tribute and putting it on my upcoming album.

MORET: You -- Joe Jackson was on television the other night. He dropped a bombshell in an interview with News 1. He was responding to rumors that a young man, I believe you know him, Omar Bhatti, is Michael's son.

Take a look at this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, COURTESY NEWS 1)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Michael may have had another child. I guess Omar is his name or -- and then they're going to say oh, he was sitting right there next to -- next to Rebbie and everyone was trying to connect some dots.

Do you know that as -- as Michael's other son?

JOE JACKSON, FATHER OF MICHAEL JACKSON: Yes. I knew he had another son. Yes, I did.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And he -- he looks like a Jackson.

JACKSON: Oh, yes. He looks like a Jackson. He acts like a Jackson. He can dance like a Jackson.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MORET: Nisha, you -- you knew Omar.

What's your reaction to that clip?

KATARIA: I mean, I -- he -- I saw him in the ranch. He lived there when I lived there. And I actually -- the first time I actually really got to meet him was when -- the second time I sang for Michael. I sang, "Because You Loved Me" with my C.D. and Michael and his nephew Eli and Omar and Prince, they all came in and sat down. And Michael was like telling them, OK, listen. You have to hear her sing.

And this was before I moved in. So I remember they were looking at each other and smiling as I was singing. And he was always smiling. A friendly boy.

MORET: I need to note for our audience, CNN has not been able to confirm Joe Jackson's assertion that Omar is, in fact, Michael Jackson's son. And according to news reports, Omar himself has denied any biological connection to Michael Jackson.

Nisha, you mentioned Paris and Prince and Blanket. They -- Paris, I believe, was about six or five and Prince a year older, Blanket just a baby.

Did you see them interact at all with Michael Jackson as a dad?

KATARIA: I did. You would think that these kids, you know, they -- they could have anything they ever wanted because Michael Jackson was their father. And there was one time when me and my mom and Michael and Prince were all in the movie theater. And there's a concession stand with all the candy and popcorn and ice cream you could ever ask for.

And one day we were all in the theater and my mom offered Prince a candy bar. And Michael told her politely, he said, oh, can't have anymore today. He all -- you know, he already had some.

So you could tell that they were disciplined kids and they were really close to their father -- really polite, friendly kids.

MORET: The world first saw Paris at Michael's memorial. And many people were surprised. She was almost elegant and very sweet and spoke from the heart.

How did you find all three kids?

KATARIA: They're adorable kids. There was one incident when Grace was driving us from the movie theater back to the main house, because it's kind of -- a little bit far. And I was sitting in the front passenger seat and Paris and my mom were sitting in the back of the Lincoln Navigator. And Paris kept tapping on my shoulder and then hiding. And then I would look back at her and she was smiling and all embarrassed. And then I would, you know, sit normal again and she would tap me on the shoulder again.

So she played like peek a boo games. She was just a cute, normal little kid.

MORET: So many...

KATARIA: All of them were.

MORET: So many people have these misconceptions that Michael and his children had an odd relationship.

Would you describe it as a typical father/child relationship with each of his kids?

KATARIA: Absolutely. They were happy kids.

MORET: If you haven't seen it yet, check out our blog for an inside account of what went on inside Michael Jackson's house before and after paramedics were called to the scene. It's at cnn.com/larryking.

More with Nisha and why Michael was drawn to her coming up next.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MORET: Back with Nisha Kataria, a protege of Michael Jackson's.

And as we told you, she -- her voice first attracted Michael Jackson. The song "I Will Always Love You" played a key role in her connection with Michael Jackson.

Let's listen to a little of Nisha singing it.

(MUSIC)

MORET: Nisha, you were 17 when you sang that?

KATARIA: Yes, I was.

MORET: Wow! That's all I can say. Wow!

KATARIA: Thank you.

MORET: I mean you said Michael Jackson said that you had a voice of an angel and it's just beautiful.

What was it like recording with him?

KATARIA: Incredible. You know, this is the man behind "Billie Jean" and all those amazing songs. And being in the studio with him and actually seeing the master at work, actually seeing him walk around the studio and come up with all these ideas in his head right in front of you. And, you know, he would -- he could come up with a melody and say, OK, Nisha, sing this line. And then he would sing it and then I would repeat it into the microphone and they would record it.

And he just came up with all these things and it was just amazing seeing him right there doing it, right in front of me and actually giving me the song. It was just an incredible feeling.

MORET: Nisha, when was the last time you spoke to Michael Jackson?

KATARIA: I spoke to him in 2003 at...

MORET: So what...

KATARIA: ...the Radio Music Awards.

MORET: What brought your time at Neverland to an end?

KATARIA: This was right before the police raided the ranch for the trial that he had to go through.

MORET: And that trial, just to point out, he was acquitted on all charges.

KATARIA: Yes.

MORET: And it's -- it's actually because of that trial -- I talked to his criminal lawyer. He never really never wanted to go back to Neverland.

KATARIA: No, he never...

MORET: Did you talk to him at all?

KATARIA: He never went back to Neverland. We were the last guests to live with him in Neverland. And he never went back there.

MORET: And what was your reaction to the way Michael Jackson has been treated and publicly portrayed?

You spent time with him, more than most people.

KATARIA: He is just the nicest human being that I have ever met in my life. And, for one of the most successful people in the world, for him to open his heart and invite me and my family to move into Neverland, you know, for him to take a girl with -- with a big voice who has a dream, he decided, you know, he wants to help me in my career and he wants to be the man to put me out to the world.

And I just think that tells a lot about a person, to open up their home to an unknown girl.

MORET: Do you feel, in a...

KATARIA: He treated me like family.

MORET: I'm sorry.

Do you feel, in a way, that you've lost a guardian angel?

KATARIA: I do. I mean it still hasn't really sunk in yet that he's really gone. But he's definitely going to remain alive through his music.

MORET: And how did you find out that he had passed away?

KATARIA: I was actually in Phoenix, where I live. And my manager called me and told me to put on CNN. And at that time, they were just saying that he had been hospitalized. So I never imagined that it would get any worse than that.

And then I -- I was -- I got in the car to drive somewhere and then my manager told me, OK, you know, he passed away. So I pulled into a parking lot and my manager was crying and I was crying. And I've never heard him cry like that. So it was really -- my manager was with him for 10 years, worked for him for 10 years. So they had a really close relationship, as well. And it was just really sad and unbelievable.

MORET: He took you under his wing and you stayed at Neverland for a couple of months.

What advice did he give you from one artist to another?

KATARIA: One of the best things that he told me was -- this was actually a telephone conversation that we had when I was living in Neverland. He told me that, "Nisha, you're going to do very well."

And I said, "Thank you."

And he said, "If you take an average singer and you give them an incredible song, then, you know, then they'll do -- then they'll do well. But you take a wonderful singer, such as yourself, and give them an amazing song, they've got it made.

So just coming from him, it meant so much.

MORET: Well, listening to that clip, you're clearly a wonderful singer.

KATARIA: Thank you.

MORET: And thank you very much for joining us tonight.

KATARIA: Thank you so much.

MORET: Michael's children -- can they move forward in peace now that a custody agreement has been apparently reached?

Back with some answers in 60 seconds.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL)

MORET: Welcome back to LARRY KING LIVE.

I'm Jim Moret from "INSIDE EDITION" sitting in for Larry.

The Michael Jackson custody case appears to be resolved.

Here to talk to us about it are Dr. Charles Sophy, psychiatrist and medical director of the L.A. County Department of Children and Family Services.

Michelle Golland, she is a clinical psychologist and contributor to MomLogic.com.

And Neal Hersh is also here. He's a family law attorney and an expert in custody issues.

Thanks a lot for joining us.

A custody agreement is reached between Katherine and Debbie Rowe to get visitation with her biological children.

From a medical standpoint, a psychiatrist's position...

DR. CHARLES SOPHY, PSYCHIATRIST: Right.

MORET: ...they don't really know her as their mom.

Is this going to be difficult?

SOPHY: Well, they're not going to really know, I think, anybody as their mom. So I think that's probably the female in their life they may know the most, hopefully. But it is a family member and that's really what you want to look for -- a tight bond or one that's already started so you can build on it.

MORET: Well, Dr. Golland, I'm sure that they look at the Internet.

MICHELLE GOLLAND, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: Yes.

MORET: They must know who Debbie Rowe is.

GOLLAND: Yes.

MORET: But they've never been introduced. She's -- she's met them and they call her...

GOLLAND: Right.

MORET: ...Miss. Debbie.

GOLLAND: Right. They never have called her mother -- that was very clear -- or mom throughout the...

MORET: But they're dealing with the loss of a dad.

GOLLAND: Right. And I think they're dealing with the loss of their parent and, really, what was a single parent, right?

I mean that's what we're talking about. So they're having to deal with the -- the grief around that at the time that I think that what has happened with the media is I think the grief process has probably been a little stunted. And hopefully now, with the custody battle being resolved, even the Jackson -- the camp, you know, Katherine and all of them -- can start to just focus on the kids.

SOPHY: The best interests of the child has to be upfront.

GOLLAND: Yes.

SOPHY: Those kids have to be safe emotionally, safe physically...

GOLLAND: Yes.

SOPHY: ...and they've got to be able to be able to be allowed to be children so that they can live and become whole.

MORET: Neal, you've had a lot of experience in custody issues. With an agreement in place, they'd still have to go before a judge. You know this judge. You like this judge.

What are...

NEAL HERSH, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY: Yes, I do.

MORET: What are the odds that the judge will approve it?

HERSH: Oh, I think it's a certainty. I think the judge is going to be very happy that the litigation has ended, that the kids can get finality and they can move forward with their lives and try to get some normalcy, to the extent it's possible, as everyone is mentioning.

GOLLAND: Right.

HERSH: I think the judge is going to be delighted and very, very happy. And I expect to see, Monday, a permanent order in place.

MORET: Permanent order, but only to the extent that Katherine Jackson remains alive.

HERSH: Yes, of course. I mean that's something...

MORET: Because you -- you believe that there's no -- not necessarily an agreement in place for what happens next and they could be back in court in a few years.

HERSH: Right. They're -- I'm almost certain that -- by the way, legally, they couldn't make an agreement that's binding as to what would happen if Katherine passes away. But I'm certain, in my mind, that there is no such agreement and after Katherine passes -- it should be a long time out, hopefully. But when she passes,. You're going to see people coming around to try to raise the issue of custody again. SOPHY: I mean, remember, you have a child psychologist or a professional in this mix to be able to bridge the biological mom to these children. So hopefully it...

MORET: How does that work?

SOPHY: Well, hopefully, that visitation will be monitored. They'll work it through, where is visitation, when is visitation, who's present?

MORET: But does a child psychologist say, at one point, to two of the kids, this is your mom?

And how does that happen?

SOPHY: Well, I think it's -- it has to start with asking those children questions.

What is their current understanding?

Where are they at today?

And then be able to make that determination of where you start to bridge.

And I think finding out where the other child is rooted would also be helpful.

But I think the bottom line is that they need a family. They have one. And they have a support around them.

GOLLAND: Right.

SOPHY: They have aunts, they have uncles, they have cousins, they have a bio mom.

GOLLAND: Right. And the maternal figure is going to end up also being, I think, multiple women. It's going to be the aunts. It's going to be -- you know, there may be a place for Debbie Rowe, as well.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right.

MORET: But there's a -- there's safety in numbers.

GOLLAND: There...

(CROSSTALK)

GOLLAND: And it needs to be -- and it needs to be solid.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Absolutely.

GOLLAND: And it needs to be consistent...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Let me just... GOLLAND: ...going forward.

HERSH: I actually have a different take on this a little bit. And that is, I think Debbie Rowe's involvement is going to be very tangential, even though they're saying she's going to start seeing them. You know, on one side of this equation, it could look like they're grooming Debbie Rowe to come back into the children's lives in case something happened to Katherine. I suspect -- and I would defer to the therapists here, that that probably isn't going to happen. I think she's just going to be a figure in their lives, kind of in their lives in the -- for the reasons you've said. The kids must know who Debbie Rowe is, so they have to know all this information.

GOLLAND: Right.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right.

HERSH: And I think they're going to introduce her, but I don't think Miss. Rowe is going to play a significant role.

(CROSSTALK)

MORET: But you're talking about kids seven, 11 and 12. So...

GOLLAND: But I think...

MORET: ...they're each dealing with something very different, though.

GOLLAND: Yes.

SOPHY: Yes. Their perceptions are very different.

GOLLAND: But I think what's important -- and this is just in a normal grieving process -- there needs to be honesty at age appropriate.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right.

GOLLAND: But I think the idea -- I mean I think what was also out there was the fact that they -- they didn't even know who Debbie Rowe was, you know. And I think, truthfully, for us, as a larger society, we're dealing what it means to have a surrogate. Look, we have the, you know, Jessica Parker and all this. This is about what it means to have a surrogate and how do we, as a culture and society, even deal with that role.

HERSH: Right.

SOPHY: These are blended families. And that's the way America is. And we have to be able to support this kind of mechanism. And if the court is going to sanction it, it's great. If they're going to support it, that's great. Let's try to make it work.

You saw these children hanging onto their aunt at that memorial.

GOLLAND: Yes.

SOPHY: They're connected.

GOLLAND: Yes.

SOPHY: They are connected.

GOLLAND: Yes.

MORET: We have to take a break.

How could a dispute over Jackson's estate affect the children?

That's coming up next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MORET: Welcome back to LARRY KING LIVE.

We have a caller from Staten Island.

Your question?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. I'd like to know what Diana Ross' opinion was this, of her being the next one to have these kids if anything happened to Katherine Jackson.

MORET: Well, it's my understanding, Neal, that Diana Ross was next in line and it hasn't even come before the court whether or not she approved it or not.

HERSH: Right. The fact that Diana Ross being listed in a will, it's only suggestions of the person who is making the will.

MORET: So that's not binding?

HERSH: It's not binding on the court at all. And the fact that she hadn't come forward, Diana Ross, is an indication that she supported Katherine's request for custody of these kids.

And who knows what would happen if something happened to Katherine, if Diana Ross would come forward or not?

It was an indication that's what Michael would have liked. That's all.

MORET: We have another call from Buffalo, New York.

Your question?

Buffalo, you're on.

Can you hear me?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: yes, I can.

MORET: Go ahead, please.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi. Yes, I'm just wondering how the smallest child, Blanket, fits into all this. I mean the other two are going to know who their mom are.

But what's going to happen with him?

MORET: That's a great question. Doctors, I'll put it to both of you. You -- when you talk about a sense of loss, two of the kids will know they have a mom.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right.

MORET: One has lost everything.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right.

MORET: So how does Blanket -- how do you deal with Blanket differently?

SOPHY: Well, look, as I said before, I think you need to find out what he does know and what has been kind of solidified for him and then go from there. But it's really building the three of them together based on the commonality they have of their dad.

I have a lot of patients who have lost both parents, one parent. You build them together. And -- and I think solidifying him into the mix isn't as -- is much more important than finding out who his biological mother or father is.

GOLLAND: And again, I think, societally, we need to really understand that there are different forms of family now and -- and that even for Blanket, I mean we don't know what the agreement was with the surrogate mother. I mean, and I know with clients and other people, you know, they have an agreement that, in the future, if the child wants to know who the surrogate is, they can -- there can be contact.

There -- I think it's also a real educational moment for our country around what surrogacy is.

MORET: Neal is shaking his head. Neal, in your experience, you would suspect that this surrogate mother may not even know she's the surrogate mother?

HERSH: Well, regardless of whether she knows...

MORET: She has no rights.

HERSH: ...my sense of Michael Jackson's camp is that this woman is out of the picture and you're not going to see her coming around ever.

SOPHY: And, no, that's fine.

GOLLAND: Right. SOPHY: Just find out what the kid knows so that we can then guide him appropriately.

HERSH: Right. Absolutely.

MORET: So how will -- the question we posed going into the break, the custody is settled, but the estate could -- could find itself in a battle.

GOLLAND: Right.

MORET: How will that affect the kids?

GOLLAND: Well, I think it would...

MORET: There -- they may know that are battle lines are being drawn.

GOLLAND: Yes. Well, they -- they know. And I think the -- the biggest concern would be that they would end up feeling as if they're a commodity, that they're -- whoever has them is -- is attached to the money...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right. Right.

GOLLAND: ...so that their identity becomes infused, right...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right.

GOLLAND: ...with this sense of in...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right.

GOLLAND: ...of financial gain by whoever is attached with them.

SOPHY: I mean, again, you would hope that the solid adults that are placed in their life...

GOLLAND: Yes.

SOPHY: ...keep that from them...

GOLLAND: Right.

SOPHY: ...and let them be the children that they need to be so they can grow to be the adults that they can be.

HERSH: Jim, I think. You're going to see the financial aspects go swimmingly and smoothly.

MORET: Why do you say that?

HERSH: Because the beneficiaries of Michael's estate are, one, his mother; and, two, his children.

SOPHY: Right. HERSH: They're all living together. So it's going to be one happy family. And I think that the disputes are going to be resolved very peacefully, far more so than we thought.

SOPHY: Right.

(CROSSTALK)

SOPHY: Again, best interests of the children.

GOLLAND: Yes.

MORET: And when you're talking about best interests of the children, they -- they -- they may very well see news reports about their father, the investigation. Michael Jackson, by his own admission, had a problem -- an addiction with the drugs.

GOLLAND: Yes.

MORET: You have that layered on top of the loss.

How do you deal with that?

SOPHY: I think every child needs to know who their parent is, age appropriately, to deal with it. Again, you rely on the adults in their life to be able to give it to them in doses until they process it over this whole process. You have a psychologist who's overseeing and navigating.

MORET: Well, give us a sense. Where...

SOPHY: So in doses.

MORET: Where would these kids be now, five, six weeks out?

It's still fresh...

GOLLAND: Oh, they're still in trauma.

SOPHY: Oh, they're raw. They're raw.

GOLLAND: I mean...

SOPHY: They're raw. They're in a new house. They're in a new house.

MORET: They're in a new house.

SOPHY: Right.

MORET: A new family.

SOPHY: New community, new friends. They're going to be maybe in a new school. They have a lot -- they have even got...

(CROSSTALK) GOLLAND: Yes. And I think, again, the media has -- has probably stunted the grieving process.

SOPHY: Exactly.

GOLLAND: And...

SOPHY: Right.

GOLLAND: And I think one of the biggest things with kids and grieving is that, you know, they get a lot of attention when it happens.

SOPHY: Right.

GOLLAND: Well, this -- talk about attention, this is a huge amount of attention.

MORET: And so -- so how does -- I mean they have...

(CROSSTALK)

GOLLAND: So then...

MORET: ...and you have the paparazzi outside the house.

GOLLAND: So then -- then what do you do when that attention goes away?

SOPHY: The dust settles.

GOLLAND: Yes.

SOPHY: And then you start to deal with the feelings that are coming up.

GOLLAND: Yes.

SOPHY: And you hope the navigation is good.

(CROSSTALK)

GOLLAND: Right.

HERSH: They're also going to be scrutinized for so long in their lives.

GOLLAND: Yes.

MORET: Well, the masks are off now, literally.

GOLLAND: I hope they are protected...

MORET: Is that...

GOLLAND: ...from it. MORET: Is that a good thing?

SOPHY: I think it's a good thing, because they need to be real people. They know how...

GOLLAND: Yes.

SOPHY: They need to know how to be real, feel their feelings and have someone guide them to deal with them.

HERSH: On the plus side, maybe these kids can get normal -- more normalcy in their lives now than they ever could before. It's a terrible thing. It's a terrible loss.

GOLLAND: Right.

HERSH: But maybe their lives will just settle down a little bit...

SOPHY: Right.

HERSH: ...not having Michael with them every minute of every day. We just don't know.

GOLLAND: Right. And then...

MORET: We have to take a break.

We'll be back with more.

Hold the thought.

We'll come right back with more of LARRY KING LIVE, right after this.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MORET: Welcome back to LARRY KING LIVE. I'm Jim Moret from "Inside Edition," sitting in for Larry. What would you tell Katherine? Put on your doctor hat. Giver her some parental advice. She is a grand mom, but now she is going to be a mom. What does she do?

GOLLAND: I think the biggest thing is to deal with the grief. That's going to be --

MORET: She is going through grief too. She lost her son.

GOLLAND: Yes. Yes. I think it is about stability and I think it's about being able to answer the questions age appropriately.

SOPHY: Giving them permanence.

MORET: Do you expect these kids are asking questions? GOLLAND: Oh, yes.

SOPHY: They should be. If they're not, I'd be worried. Giving them the space to emote and have their feelings come and deal with them, is the best thing to do in a permanent, safe setting.

GOLLAND: I'm sorry. Go ahead.

HERSH: I was going to say, hopefully, the family is going to take the opportunity to use the resources available to them to make sure the kids have therapists, have questions answered, a safe environment, and be able to really work out these very difficult problems.

MORET: We saw Paris for the first time at the memorial. Most people were stunned at her grace. What was your reaction?

SOPHY: That he must have been a darn good dad to be able to bring that out in that child.

GOLLAND: Even through all that. And let's face it, being a drug addict, dealing in the way he had to cope -- all the things -- he must have also done a lot of good.

SOPHY: She was loved. You could tell that.

MORET: You can see the family in this clip here, that the family literally and figuratively, they're embracing her.

HERSH: Pictures are worth a thousand words.

SOPHY: The relationships are there. You can tell. When Katherine was looking to get custody, you could see that this was a family where she did have an on-going relationship with all three of these children.

GOLLAND: And with the aunts and so forth. I think with grief and children what is also really important is to understand that children respond differently. Some children may become more shut down, while some really may be emotive and be aggressive. And they can have emotional outbursts. So to understand and be prepared that personalities may shift a little. That is sort of how children deal with the sadness and the anger.

SOPHY: Allow them emotional space.

MORET: Neal, briefly -- we have 30 seconds -- do you think these kids can have a normal life?

HERSH: I actually do. I'm hopeful that things will settle down and they will get into a routine that is very normalized. Hopefully that will happen.

GOLLAND: I agree. I'm very hopeful. I think, with things in place, and therapy, and stability --

SOPHY: I think so. I also think, as long as Katherine can provide safety and permanence, they should be on a really good path.

MORET: Dr. Charles Sophy, Michelle Golland, Neal Hersh, thank you all for joining us.

We're making a big turn now. When we come back, sharks, not lawyers, sharks; the close calls that turn swimmers into survivors, next. I'm a lawyer, too.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Kind of turned around and starting walking in, and it just hit me. The impact is incredible, like somebody hit me in the back of the leg really hard with a baseball bat.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MORET: Welcome back to LARRY KING LIVE. I'm Jim Moret from "Inside Edition," sitting in for Larry tonight. It is shark week on Discovery Channel, beginning this Sunday. My 11 year old nephew and my favorite time. Joining us are Andy DeHart, marine biologist and shark adviser, Patrick Walsh is a shark attack survivor. A great white tore into him when cage diving. He'll tell us about that in a minute. He took a video of the attack. We'll show that to you. In Pensacola, Florida, Chuck Anderson is here. He lost most of his right arm during a bull shark attack.

Andy, Shark Week is 23 years old?

ANDY DEHART, SHARK EXPERT: It's actually the 22nd year of Discovery Channel's annual shark week programming. So something about sharks striking a chord in the folks. We're glad they are tuning in.

MORET: I think ever since "Jaws" in '75, I've terrified to go into the water. Literally, I'm just terrified when I go to the beach. I think a lot of people are, especially looking at this footage, you understand why.

DEHART: Absolutely. You are not alone. A lot of people had their lives changed by the movie "Jaws." There's something about sharks, but also the water environment. We are not comfortable in the water. It's the fear of the unknown. These animals are no more dangerous than grizzly bears in national parks.

MORET: Yes, but there are no grizzly bears in the water. Chuck, tell us about your experience?

CHUCK ANDERSON, SHARK ATTACK SURVIVOR: I was in Gulf Shores, Alabama on June 9th of 2000, trap line training with some friends of mine. A 64-year-old lady and I went out about 150 yards from the beach and swam from the east back to the west. About a minute into the swim, something hit me from the bottom. I equate it to a full- back running over a line-backer in football terminology.

It rolled me up on my back. Though I didn't see what it was, I pretty much knew exactly what it was. I started treading water, because it was about 15 feet there. I started looking around on the surface, looking around. I put my face down in the water and, when I did, I saw what it was. It was a big shark coming up at me.

I instantly threw my hands to protect myself toward the shark, and he took all four fingers off my right hand. All that was left was my thumb. The third time he came at me, he hit me in my stomach. I have a perfect shark's tooth scar on the bottom right hand side of my stomach and a gash on the upper left hand side of my stomach.

The fourth time I actually saw the fin coming through the water. I heard you all talking about "Jaws." and the only thing missing was the music. I tried to push off of him again. This time he attached to my right arm and took me down to the bottom, slung me around, did the feeding frenzy thing, skipped my back and shoulder and hip up.

He came to the surface and I was able to get my left hand on his nose. People on the beach said it looked like I was skis he pushed me so fast through the water. We ended up on a sand bar about 20 yards off the beach. He was laying completely on the right side of my body.

I was able to wiggle out from underneath him. When I tried to jerk my arm out, he gnashed to the side, stripped my arm, what they call completely degloving it, taking it off from the elbow all the way, and my hand popping off in his mouth. Fell back on the sand bar and ran to the beach.

MORET: Did people come to your assistance immediately, help rescue you?

ANDERSON: Well, actually, the lady I was swimming with was there at the beach. She helped me up to the board walk. I walked my self up. Two gentlemen came down, took a shirt off. I was able to attach a turnicate to it. Pretty soon, the paramedics got there quickly.

MORET: How long was the recovery?

ANDERSON: I started training -- I was in the hospital 13 days in intensive care. I aspirated a lot of saltwater. That was probably worse than the blood I lost in my arm. But I stayed in intensive care for 13 days, got back to walking 15 days. I actually got back in the pool about two months after the accident.

The accident occurred in June. And in April of 2001, I did my first triathlon after the accident. It took a lot of hard work. But if you love something and you enjoy doing something, you don't let something like a shark attack stop you from doing it.

MORET: That is easier said than done. I would be terrified. You walk back on the beach for the very first time. You say, OK, this is the first time since this shark attack; I'm going back in. What went through your mind?

ANDERSON: It was difficult the first time I put my face back in saltwater.

MORET: You must look over your shoulder a lot.

ANDERSON: I made sure there were a lot of people around me. I did a triathalon. That was the first time -- when I got back in the water was the first day I did my triathalon. So there were about 750 people around me. So I figured if I stayed in the middle of the pack or up front, I would be a little bit safer.

The chances of getting bitten by a shark are much less than getting hit by a car or even killed by a vending machine. I figured my chances were pretty good getting aback in. I have done about 15 to 17 triathalons since that date. Pretty comfortable back in the water now.

MORET: I still don't know anyone killed by a vending machine. But I will take your word for it. Thank you very much, Chuck, for telling us your story.

ANDERSON: Thank you.

MORET: -- best or worst thing to a close encounter of the "Jaws" kind, some of the scariest footage you will ever see. Krishna Thompson's survivor story is truly one for the books.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Most of the flesh and muscle tissue below Krishna's left thigh is gone. He is on his own, far from land, and he is bleeding to death. The summer of the shark is --

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MORET: Krishna Thompson lived to tell a story. You won't believe it, even after this, from a shark. This is all from shark week. Take a look. Krishna.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: On the first morning of their vacation, Krishna goes to the beach for a swim without his wife. The water is unusually murky. A bull shark is swimming nearby.

One hundred million years of evolution gives the shark the ability to hunt in water where it can barely see. A shark can hear a school of spawning fish from over a mile away. From 500 yards, it can smell a single drop of blood.

At 300 feet, sensors in the lateral lines along its body can detect movement in the water.

And at close range, hundreds of tiny pores in its snout can pick up the ectromagnetic pulse of a fish or a human.

This is the bull shark's word. It's at home in these shallow, murky waters. Thompson is not. (END VIDEO CLIP)

MORET: We'll hear what happened to Krishna coming up next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The shock of this gruesome attack is just beginning to sink in for the family of Krishna and Maria Thompsons.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Doctors amputate Krishna's mangled leg. News reports tell his story.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It is surprising that he is alive. The injuries that he had, he should have bled to death right three in the Bahamas on the beach.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(NEWS BREAK)

MORET: From pythons back to sharks. Andy, Patrick and Chuck are still with us, talking about Shark Week, coming up on Discovery. Joining us now is Krishna Thompson, whose story we just saw before the break. His nightmare is featured in the episode "Shark Bite Summer." I guess, Krishna, you're sorry that narrator wasn't there to say, stay out of the water.

KRISHNA THOMPSON, SHARK ATTACK SURVIVOR: I'm glad.

MORET: It must be a harrowing experience to go through that. Do you relive it in your mind? Was it horrific?

THOMPSON: It was. It was. You know, I really underestimated the power of the shark. They are just so powerful. When I saw that shark coming towards me, I actually thought that I could get out of its way.

MORET: How big was it?

THOMPSON: I hear, like -- according to George Burgess, I believe he told me eight feet.

MORET: And talk about the power. You say you thought you could out-swim or overpower the shark. You clearly couldn't?

THOMPSON: I thought I could. But I saw the shark coming from the corner of my eye. I saw that fin coming right towards me. And I actually tried to twist my body and throw my body weight towards the land. And as I threw my body, the shark -- I actually felt the shark's body swim through my legs, graze my inner knee, my right knee, and it caught my left leg in mid-air, between my knee and my ankle.

I was just shocked and I was just -- I just couldn't believe it. I started to think about my wife and family and friends. And I thought, I don't even have any kids yet. I started thinking all these terrible thoughts.

MORET: Did you think you were going to die?

THOMPSON: I tell you one thing, I did think I was going to die, because I had no control as far as -- you know, when you are in the ocean, Jim, and an animal has you, and it is at its liberty to live, die or breathe, that is a scary feeling.

But you know what? I remained calm, cool and I just waited the shark out. And one of the few things I tried to do is I tried to use my body weight to shake loose. You know when you are in the pool playing around with friends and you try and grab them and slip through their fingers? This wasn't happening. I just could not get out of its jaws.

I remember when the shark caught my leg, I heard its teeth go right into my bones. So it had me pretty good. It just started towing me out further out into the deep, with my waist out of the water. I was just shocked.

MORET: How did you get away?

THOMPSON: Through a prayer and a little luck. Before you know it, the shark just kept towing me out further into the ocean and then I -- like I said, I tried to use my body weight to get loose. That did not work.

And then, before you know it, the shark pulled me down under the water and started shaking me like a rag doll and once -- when the shark was shaking me like a rag doll, I just had to tense my body up. And I tried to not allow any water to get in my nose or mouth, because if that happens, it is not going to be good. I would drown.

So I just kind of waited out the shark. And when the shark stopped shaking me, it was time for action. Now it was my time. I tried to imagine the shark's jaws in relation to my leg. I did not feel pain, but I felt pressure. So I threw one punch in that area of where I thought the shark had my leg. And then I reached down with both my hands -- again, it sounds pretty silly, but I was desperate. I had to breathe. And I released myself.

I couldn't believe it. It worked. It actually worked. The shark let me go, and it actually spun 360 degrees around after I started giving it combinations to the nose and mouth area.

MORET: You obviously have a good left and right hook. If humans don't taste good to sharks, why did a great white go after our next guest? Find out after the break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I remember just looking down, and that's when everything became even worse. I realized that there's actually two other sharks, 14, 15-foot sharks, just circling below me. At that moment it was sheer terror.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MORET: Welcome back. I'm Jim Moret of "Inside Edition." We are talking sharks on LARRY KING LIVE. Andy, Chuck and Krishna are still with us, as we get to Patrick Walsh's story. Patrick was attacked by a great white while cage diving.

You were cheating, obviously, and you took video of the attack. His story is featured in the episode "Day of the Shark." Thank you for joining us. You have a visual aid with you?

PATRICK WALSH, SHARK ATTACK SURVIVOR: I do. I have a segment of the cage, what is left of it.

MORET: Give us -- this is substantial.

WALSH: Pretty strong.

MORET: I mean, it ripped this right apart?

WALSH: Yes. It ripped the walls right off. You can see it put a nice bend in it. That is from the weight of the tail.

MORET: You heard Krishna's story.

WALSH: Yes.

MORET: You were able to witness the power without suffering personal injury. But you clearly saw the power of these sharks.

WALSH: Yes. It's immense. This particular shark was approximately 15 to 16 feet in length, probably close to 2,000 pounds.

MORET: This is you underwater?

WALSH: Yes. This is my footage. Honestly, prior to this shark hitting the cage, I thought I was in a cage that was -- there was no chance of it being breached. These cages were substantial. It took a crew of six people to even put it into the water.

MORET: Sharks are being hunted now.

WALSH: Right.

MORET: What do you feel about that? Do you think they should be protected?

WALSH: Absolutely. I think what is going on around the world, in terms of sharks being killed for no apparent reason, just for finning, for shark fin soup --

MORET: Andy DeHart is a marine biologist. Andy, we have a graphic. What makes certain areas of the world hot spots for shark attacks. As we put the graphic up on the screen, explain to us, what is it that -- you look at the world here. You look at Florida, the Bahamas. What is it? Warm water? There is Hawaii.

DEHART: One of the main things we're looking at is the species that live in that region. There are some dangerous shark species, the great white shark, the tiger shark and the bull shark, all of which have been featured tonight. Even diving with those animal can be incredibly safe in all of these areas.

Also, the kind of main hot spot in the world is in Florida, New Smyrna Beach. There have been 610 shark attacks in Florida, but only 13 fatalities. These are small sharks.

MORET: You look at the graphic, it looks like everywhere people swim, there are sharks. We don't want to be alarmist. It's safe in the water. You respect sharks, but you have to be mindful of them.

DEHART: Absolutely. I have spent well over 1,000 dives with very large sharks. You can be in the water with sharks very safely. Being at the beach is incredibly safe. Driving to the beach is actually far more dangerous than swimming with sharks all around you. So please don't worry about sharks when you go to the beach.

But sharks do need to fear from us, because we are killing them at a rate of 250,000 a day.

MORET: You clearly have to have a great deal of respect for them and be mindful that they are stronger than you. Thank you all for joining us.

One week from tonight, Larry interviews Jermaine Jackson. Time now for Anderson Cooper and "AC 360."

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0907/31/lkl.01.html

Surprise Twist in Michael Jackson Custody Case; Griffin O'Neal Says Ryan O'Neal Used Farrah Fawcett in Death

Aired August 3, 2009 - 21:00 ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


LARRY KING, HOST: Tonight, surprise twist inside the Michael Jackson court hearing -- what does the king of pop's dermatologist want now that grandmother Katherine's got the kid?

It's a shocker raising questions about the identity of the children's real father. Her attorneys are here with the exclusive details.

Plus, Griffin O'Neal's bombshell -- Ryan's son rips into his dad. Those tears at Farrah's funeral -- he says they were fake. And there's more about the drama, the drugs and the dangerous liaison between Ryan and Farrah.

Was it all about money?

Next on LARRY KING LIVE.

Before we meet the attorneys who successfully represented Katherine Jackson in court today, let's go up on the roof, to Ted Rowlands, our CNN correspondent, who was there, of course.

What were the key rulings today -- Ted?

TED ROWLANDS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, a real busy day, Larry. It started with that bombshell you alluded to in the open. Dr. Arnie Klein's lawyer showed up during the custody section of the hearing and said that the doctor wanted to play a role in the children's lives. The judge talked to him a little bit outside and then ultimately ruled no, he wouldn't have a standing in this proceedings.

And Katherine Jackson was, as everybody expected, awarded custody of the three children.

They also came to terms with a stipend for Katherine Jackson and one for the children, separately from the estate, allowing money to flow to the family while everything gets worked out.

They also, both sides got together and figured out how to get around an issue that has been plaguing the proceedings here and a confidentiality agreement reached with Katherine Jackson. Basically, she's going to sign this thing. That will give the estate the go- ahead to enter into some lucrative contracts with Sony and AEG and bring in, basically, more millions into the estate.

One thing that did happen, too, which was significant, the will was accepted by the judge into probate -- a huge step. No real reaction from either side in terms of opposing that. That went through. But the executors were not appointed on a full-time basis. The judge is going to wait on that. And we're also waiting to see exactly what Katherine Jackson's role is going to be in terms of the estate moving forward.

So a lot done, but also a lot still scheduled. A couple of new hearings scheduled starting next week. So a lot still to be done.

KING: One other thing, Ted, was Debbie Rowe, the mother of the kids, there?

ROWLANDS: No. Her attorney was there, though, but she did not make an appearance.

KING: Thanks. That's Ted Rowlands, our CNN correspondent, who has been atop this story since it's -- since it all happened.

We now welcome Londell -- Londell McMillan, an attorney for Katherine Jackson, and Diane Goodman, who's attorney for Katherine. She also handles custody issues, as well.

Londell, would you say today was a successful day for your client?

LONDELL MCMILLAN, KATHERINE JACKSON'S ATTORNEY: I think by all accounts and all measures, today was a very, very significant day and we achieved a great deal. And we're happy that Mrs. Jackson now has the permanent custody of her wonderful three children.

And I want to thank my co-counsel, Diane Goodman, and Debbie Rowe's counsel, Eric. He was just terrific and she was great. And we handled this without a lot of fanfare, without a lot of back and forth. And it was done with the prudence and care that we always said that we would do.

So, you know, at the end of the day, a lot of people have things to say about how lawyers do business. This was a classic case of doing it for the right reason, the right thing.

KING: Diane, anything you wanted you didn't get?

DIANE GOODMAN, KATHERINE JACKSON'S ATTORNEY: No, we got everything we wanted. We wanted to make Mrs. Jackson the permanent guardian of the children today. That's what we were looking for to have happen.

KING: Were the children there?

GOODMAN: No. The children were excused by the judge from the appearance.

KING: Have you talked to them since?

GOODMAN: To the family?

KING: To the kids? GOODMAN: No, I have not yet had a chance to talk to the kids.

KING: You gather they're very happy about this?

GOODMAN: They very much wanted their grandmother to be their permanent guardian.

KING: And what did you arrange with Debbie Rowe's lawyer?

MCMILLAN: We arranged that she would have, under the appropriate type of supervision and care for the children, an opportunity to have visitation in a supervised manner, in the best interests of the children. And, quite frankly, as I've always said, this was never about money. It wasn't a money deal. And she deserves credit for that. Her lawyer deserves credit for that. And it's always been about the best interests of the children, Larry.

KING: Now, we understand the children signed consents to the agreement?

GOODMAN: That's correct, the two oldest children.

KING: How does that work?

GOODMAN: Well, under guardianship law, children over 12 have the right to consent or object to a guardian. And although Paris isn't yet 12, she and her brother both signed consents that -- indicating they wanted their grandmother to be their permanent guardian.

KING: Was there any financial payment to Debbie Rowe?

GOODMAN: None.

KING: But she gets supervised visitation. That's arranged between her...

GOODMAN: She will get...

KING: ...and Katherine?

GOODMAN: We will be hiring -- jointly hiring, with Deborah Rowe and Mrs. Jackson, we'll be hiring a psychologist who is going to assist the parties in determining what would be appropriate based on the children's needs and their developmental stages at this time.

KING: Has Debbie had any interaction with the children since the death?

GOODMAN: No.

KING: To your knowledge.

GOODMAN: She has not had any since Michael died.

KING: Do you know how soon visitation will begin? GOODMAN: We'll be working on hiring a psychologist and figuring that out soon. But, you know, we should have a plan in place within a couple of months.

KING: Did the children know a lot about Debbie, to your knowledge?

Do they -- what do they know about their mother?

MCMILLAN: I don't know how much they know about.

GOODMAN: I don't know, either. And that's one of the things that we're going to have to sensitively explore with the children.

KING: I mean will they be meeting a stranger?

GOODMAN: Essentially, yes.

KING: Huh.

GOODMAN: They haven't seen her since they were very little.

KING: We have -- by the way, have some remarkable home video of a birthday celebration for Paris a number of years ago.

Take a look.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PARIS JACKSON: You're the best daddy in the whole world.

MICHAEL JACKSON: I love you more, Paris.

PRINCE JACKSON: Daddy, I have some...

M. JACKSON: (INAUDIBLE) why don't you sit next to Paris?

PRINCE JACKSON: OK.

PARIS JACKSON: Daddy?

M. JACKSON: Yes?

PARIS JACKSON: I have -- thank you for giving me ice cream. You're the best dad in the whole world and I love you.

M. JACKSON: Oh, that's sweet. Tell me what your wishes are for your birthday.

What would you like to see happen?

PARIS JACKSON: (INAUDIBLE).

M. JACKSON: In your life?

Well what -- what do you want? PARIS JACKSON: I'd do what you do.

J. JACKSON: What do I do?

PARIS JACKSON: You dance and sing.

J. JACKSON: That's what you want to do?

Really?

PRINCE JACKSON: Me, too.

J. JACKSON: Prince, I'm talking to Paris.

PARIS JACKSON: Well, it's not your birthday, Prince. It's not your birthday.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: An adorable kid.

Does the father, Joe Jackson, have any say in any of this?

MCMILLAN: No, he...

KING: Did he come up in court today?

MCMILLAN: No, he doesn't. He didn't show up in court today but he...

KING: Didn't the judge inquire about the father?

MCMILLAN: No -- no, he didn't. But he is still Mrs. Jackson's husband. But the -- he didn't -- he didn't inquire and he will not have a role raising the children. He doesn't live in Havenhurst.

But you know what, you raised Joe Jackson and I do want to say something. It is understandable some of the sentiments toward him. But I think, in many respects, he gets a bad -- he gets a bad shake. He's a loving guy. He's been there from day one. He's a tough guy. You know, he has his ups and downs with the media.

But at the same time, Michael forgave Joe Jackson. No one really pays attention to that. Look at the "Thriller" 25 credits. Michael forgave Joe Jackson. And, you know, he's moving on. And he's not going to be a major factor with the children. And -- and we're moving forward.

GOODMAN: You know...

KING: In this kind of case, though -- and forgetting the Jackson and the attention -- wouldn't a judge inquire about the father?

GOODMAN: The grandfather?

KING: The grandfather. Yes. GOODMAN: Yes. And he did. And Mr. Jackson signed a consent consenting to his wife being guardian of...

KING: Oh, he did sign that?

GOODMAN: He did sign a consent that was...

KING: And that was presented in the court?

GOODMAN: ...presented there today. He also signed a declaration explaining that he lives most of the time in Las Vegas...

KING: (INAUDIBLE)...

GOODMAN: ...and will visit with his grandchildren occasionally.

MCMILLAN: I want to say, though, and I want to share that he voluntarily did that. He wasn't -- he wasn't forced to do it. He wanted to do it. He wanted to -- he wanted to be a non-issue and he only wanted the best interests of the children. He wanted to support his wife, Mrs. Katherine Jackson. And that's what we did.

KING: It's good to hear.

MCMILLAN: Yes.

KING: We'll be right back.

Do you, by the way, agree with the court's ruling on custody?

Go to CNN.com/larryking, click on the blog and tell us what you think and we'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: We're back with the attorneys, Londell McMillan and Diane Goodman.

The (INAUDIBLE) -- they're not partners, by the way. Londell represents Katherine fully, right?

You're her lawyer?

MCMILLAN: Yes.

KING: And Diane represents her in matters of custody, right?

GOODMAN: Correct.

KING: Do the children know all about what's going on?

GOODMAN: I hope not.

KING: Don't they have to almost?

GOODMAN: I think they have some sense of it. They had to be interviewed by the probate investigator, so I think they have some sense. But we've tried to shield them from as much as possible. And my goal is that the media leave them alone and let them get a chance to grieve their father's death and just grow up.

KING: Do you think that's an expectant goal?

GOODMAN: I'm hopeful.

KING: Yes. That would -- that would be nice.

Has this case, barring all the publicity -- the over the top publicity -- has it gone well?

MCMILLAN: The case?

KING: Yes.

MCMILLAN: The case -- the petition filing for the custody, I think, has gone extraordinarily well. We couldn't have expected it to go better.

In terms of the estate, it could go much better and we hope it will get better.

KING: A lot of -- what's the problem?

MCMILLAN: Well, the problem is, the issue of who is and who should be the executors and the trustees and what happened between the time of 2002 and 2009. And at the time of death, there's no question that Mrs. Katherine Jackson was Michael Jackson's most trusted person, from a personal and business standpoint.

KING: But it is rare, is it not, to have a 79-year-old trustee, since your trustee is going to pass away well before the children have -- need money?

MCMILLAN: Not at all. Not at all. Because...

KING: No?

MCMILLAN: No, because a trustee is not an expert in matters of administration or entertainment or media or whatever this estate has. A trustee is a person who's trusted -- a person who has honor with respect to the decedent. And I'm not going to take away from the other gentlemen, but I know for a fact there is no one in the world that was trusted by Michael Jackson more than Mrs. Katherine Jackson.

KING: What happens if, God forbid, she passes?

MCMILLAN: Well, there are provisions under the probate code as well as under the trust documents that haven't been disclosed publicly yet. But there's -- there's provisions that allow for how do you replace a vacated seat. For example, there were originally three seats. There were three persons designated. One chose to leave. Under this particular trust, the remaining trustees and executors can appoint a third person. So there are provisions for that. KING: Are the trustees paid?

MCMILLAN: The trustees are paid.

KING: OK.

What did you make of the Arnold Klein lawyer coming?

GOODMAN: I was totally confused by it. He definitely...

KING: What did he want?

GOODMAN: Well, he couldn't even tell us. He said his client was concerned about the children's education and welfare. The judge made it very clear that he didn't have standing. And I'm not sure what he was really looking for.

KING: Are you?

MCMILLAN: From a -- from a legal standpoint, no standing...

KING: OK. Dr. Klein was a guest on this show early last month. And we asked about speculation surrounding paternity.

Watch.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KING: What about all the rumors about you and the fathering of those children?

DR. ARNIE KLEIN, MICHAEL JACKSON'S DERMATOLOGIST: Here's the most important thing. Michael loved those children as a father. Those children loved him as a father. As far as I'm concerned, that's the most important grouping there is.

KING: That's not answering the question.

KLEIN: No, because I'm not going to answer it the way you want me to answer it, because I think (INAUDIBLE)...

KING: Well, you could say no.

KLEIN: I can say no then. I'll say no if that's what you want to hear.

KING: No. I want to hear what you want, what you know.

KLEIN: What I will tell you is that -- see, because I hear what's most important about this whole thing, to end this thing, is that the most important thing in who the father is, is who the father is -- who the children want their father to be. And I will tell you this, I will say no, because the most important person to these children is how Michael loved them, how he loved his children and how they loved him, because they would never go past him without saying: "I love you, daddy." He would say, "I love you."

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: So is Arnold saying there he would like to be the father?

Reading between the lines, what is he saying?

MCMILLAN: Well, it's hard to read between the lines, but I can tell you what he expressly said, that -- that Michael Jackson was a great father and that they loved each other and...

KING: That's what he said.

MCMILLAN: ...and, you know...

KING: But the question was is he the father?

He didn't say no. He didn't say yes.

MCMILLAN: Yes.

GOODMAN: He's not the legal father. He doesn't have any standing. I have no idea whether he's the biological father but that's not...

KING: Could he prove that in a DNA test?

GOODMAN: Could it be proved?

Yes. But this court is not going to order it and there is no standing for him to ask for it. There is conclusive presumption that Michael Jackson is the children's father.

KING: We want to remind you, by the way, Jermaine Jackson will be here for the hour this Friday night on LARRY KING LIVE.

We'll be back in 60 seconds.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: We're back.

Let's get a couple of calls in.

Dayton, Ohio, hello.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hello?

KING: Hi.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: is this Larry King?

KING: Yes, go ahead.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hi. This is Jack McGuire (ph) from Dayton, Ohio. Thank you for taking my call.

KING: Hello, Jack.

What's the question?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, I -- I have a question for Diane that actually challenges the notion that Debbie Rowe is not receiving any payment for not seeking custody of her children. And basically it goes like this. Debbie Rowe is receiving substantial spousal support payments from Michael Jackson and now from his estate. Under California law, those payments should stop upon the death of the payee, which is Michael Jackson.

But apparently there's been an agreement where those payments will continue indefinitely.

KING: All right, hold on right there.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So why is that?

KING: Is that true?

GOODMAN: That would be true absent an agreement. In the agreements between Michael and Debbie, these payments continue. Some divorce judgments provide that payments terminate on the death of the payor or the payee.

KING: Do they continue now?

GOODMAN: This case (INAUDIBLE).

KING: So she is being paid?

GOODMAN: But there's no new payments to her. These are moneys she was receiving before.

KING: So this is not additional money since the death...

GOODMAN: There is nothing...

KING: ...nothing is -- it's not child support money...

GOODMAN: Correct.

KING: ...it's money as part of the original divorce agreement?

MCMILLAN: That's right.

GOODMAN: Correct. And there is nothing additional being paid since his death.

KING: But she will get this money, for how long?

GOODMAN: That I'm not sure.

KING: Do you know? MCMILLAN: We're not prepared to say that.

KING: How long it lasts?

What -- it was in the original...

GOODMAN: For however long...

KING: ...it was in the original...

(CROSSTALK)

KING: Isn't the original divorce agreement public?

MCMILLAN: No.

KING: No. I thought...

MCMILLAN: Not the...

GOODMAN: Well, yes, the original...

MCMILLAN: Not -- the divorce agreement, but not the actual settlement.

KING: OK.

GOODMAN: Right.

KING: Nashville, hello.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: hi. Good evening.

My question is, even though Joe Jackson cannot play a role in the kids' life, would he have any type of visitation rights to see the kids?

KING: Are you talking about Dr. Klein?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I'm sorry?

KING: Oh. Oh, Joe Jackson -- can he visit the kids?

I'm sorry. I didn't hear (INAUDIBLE).

GOODMAN: Joe Jackson?

KING: Yes.

GOODMAN: Yes. Joe Jackson has a right to visit the children and plans to visit his children.

MCMILLAN: Grandchildren.

GOODMAN: Grandchildren.

MCMILLAN: The grandchildren.

GOODMAN: And his children.

KING: So he's going to be involved in their lives?

GOODMAN: Absolutely. He was involved in their lives prior to Michael's passing away, also.

KING: Celebrities and drugs is an age old problem. Lorna Luft has written a blog exclusive for us about this very issue and how doctors enabled her mother, Judy Garland. Go to read it. Go to the blog via CNN.com/larryking.

We'll be back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: We have Londell McMillan and Diane Goodman.

So we'll clear that up. Judge -- Dr. Klein has no standing with the kids today.

MCMILLAN: Absolutely not.

KING: If he wanted to see them, Katherine could say yes or no, right?

MCMILLAN: That's correct.

KING: That's OK.

The judge today also extended the appointments of John Branca and john McClain, the executors named in Michael Jackson's will, for the next 60 days.

How does Katherine feel about that?

GOODMAN: I think that's OK. Right now, somebody's got to be in charge. And that was what the judge said, we need someone in charge making decisions. And it gives us time to have further conversations and to discuss how we're going to handle that.

KING: Since it was in the will, what's the question?

MCMILLAN: Well, the...

KING: It was Michael's wish.

MCMILLAN: Well, the first thing is the extension is not actually a permanent appointment. I think their intention was to obtain a permanent appointment. Michael's wishes in 2002 don't reflect what his wishes are in 2009.

KING: How do you know?

MCMILLAN: The law is full of rules, presumptions and burdens. Because there was a will and there has not been a subsequent one presented to the court, the presumption is that the will was valid and the will was his wishes as it -- as it was intended.

Our burden would be, unless Mrs. Jackson is made a major part to protect and preserve the legacy of Michael Jackson, would to introduce information into evidence that would actually shift the burden with respect to these executors.

KING: And have you done that?

MCMILLAN: Well, we're in the process of doing that and that's forthcoming.

KING: That's what the extension was for 60 days. So you have to present evidence.

Why do you want to take that away from him?

MCMILLAN: Well, during the period of time we've been negotiating and talking, we -- we've asked for information and documentation. And we weren't able to get the information. So the court also moved forward to allow Mrs. Jackson to move forward the process to get information.

KING: Howard Weitzman, the attorney for John McClain and John Branca, the executors of the will, had this to say: "The special administrators are in the process of creating significant value for Michael Jackson's beneficiaries -- his three children, his mother, Mrs. Katherine Jackson, and the charitable causes that were so important to him during his lifetime."

MCMILLAN: Right.

KING: That's their job, isn't it?

MCMILLAN: Well, that's the job of the administrators, executors and the trustees. And I think that whomever will ultimately be in the position to do that will undertake that position responsibly.

KING: Do you have any question about them being the executors?

Do you have any questions...

GOODMAN: I...

KING: ...about Branca and McClain?

GOODMAN: I don't know either of them. I handle the custody issues. So I will leave that for Londell.

KING: Isn't Branca's reputation of the highest regard?

MCMILLAN: His reputation is his reputation, but that's different than whether or not Michael Jackson, in 2009, wanted he and McClain to be their sole executors.

KING: How do we know?

MCMILLAN: We're going to prove it.

KING: You can prove it?

MCMILLAN: We're going to prove it.

KING: Tell -- tell me...

MCMILLAN: We're going to...

KING: Unless you have a written statement from him or have him on tape saying it, how do you prove it?

MCMILLAN: Well, there's information that we intend to share with them as a courtesy to them, to -- to share with them...

KING: Why do you...

MCMILLAN: ...why we think that it was different.

KING: Why do you not want Branca and McClain to be the executors?

MCMILLAN: Well, I never said I don't want him, OK, to date, OK?

What we've been saying is that we want Mrs. Jackson to be the third one. See, the question is not about not wanting Branca.

The question is why do -- why do people not want Mrs. Jackson?

This is his mother. This is...

KING: Why didn't Michael say that in 2002?

MCMILLAN: Well, Michael said that he -- she is his trustee in 2006, 2007, 2009, not Branca, not McClain. Michael also consulted with her around business matters.

Branca and Michael had a separation -- a long separation. Branca just came back into Michael Jackson's life. Branca has a stellar career. I take that -- don't take that away from him. But there are many lawyers that have stellar careers that are not the trustee for -- for Michael Jackson -- or not the executor.

KING: I've got it.

MCMILLAN: OK.

KING: The Bronx, New York.

Hello.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: hello. Yes, I was calling about Blanket. Being that Debbie has visitation rights to both older children, will Blanket be included in these activities so he won't feel left out, being that he don't have a mother nor a father right now?

KING: Will who be included?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Blanket.

GOODMAN: Will Blanket be included in the visitation...

KING: Oh. Oh, I'm sorry.

GOODMAN: ...with Deborah Rowe?

KING: I didn't hear her. Yes.

GOODMAN: It will depend if that's in Blanket's best interests or not. Right now, I don't think that's anticipated. He's never met Debbie Rowe and she's not Blanket's mother.

KING: How long is this going to go on, Londell?

MCMILLAN: Well, we hope that it's resolved soon. We have -- we have meetings with special administrators and -- and, frankly, I think that they're decent people that want to do the right thing. It's very sensitive and very...

KING: But there's no villain in the piece?

MCMILLAN: Are there -- no. There are no villains in the piece, as far as we can say. The only thing that's villainous is why would anyone want to prevent Mrs. Jackson from serving as a third executor or trustee?

KING: Do they want to prevent her?

MCMILLAN: The question is why would anyone?

And if they don't...

KING: Have they filed anything to say they don't want her?

MCMILLAN: Well, they have not accepted her to date.

KING: OK.

What's the resolution, if any, of the resting place?

MCMILLAN: That's a -- that's a matter that...

KING: Does Katherine have a say in that?

What -- who has a say in that?

MCMILLAN: I think Mrs. Jackson will have a say.

KING: The autopsy is over, right?

So the body is somewhere. MCMILLAN: Right. That's a family matter. I tend not to go into the most private family matters. And I think, you know, you've got a number of family members coming on the show. I think they're better -- better prepared to answer those questions.

KING: Do you expect a resolution of that?

GOODMAN: At some point, yes.

KING: How long?

GOODMAN: It's up to the family. It's something they're going to have to work out.

KING: Thank you both.

Thanks for coming.

MCMILLAN: Thank you.

KING: Londell and Diane, thank you.

GOODMAN: Thank you very much.

KING: Londell McMillan, attorney for Katherine Jackson, and Diane Goodman, the attorney for Katherine as in handling custody issues for her.

Griffin O'Neal is here and he's not holding back on a volatile relationship with his father, Ryan O'Neal, and what happened with Farrah Fawcett. Those accusations are next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: We now welcome to LARRY KING LIVE Griffin O'Neal. He's the son of Ryan O'Neal, the half-brother of Redmond O'Neal, and the son he has -- he's the mother of the late -- he's the son of the late Farrah Fawcett.

Farrah died June 25th -- wow, it seems like yesterday -- after a long battle with cancer.

When was the last time you saw her?

GRIFFIN O'NEAL, SON OF RYAN O'NEAL: I do believe it was the night before her birthday.

KING: Now, Farrah is not your mother?

O'NEAL: No, no.

KING: Farrah is your step...

O'NEAL: My mother was Joanna Moore.

KING: Joanna Moore is your mom. O'NEAL: Yes, Farrah was my -- was sort of my step mom. They were really never married, so -- so she was more my friend than...

KING: Yes.

O'NEAL: ...than anything.

KING: Was she a good friend?

O'NEAL: She was a great friend. Yes. Now, at first, she was so nice -- you know, I came from a not so nice kind of a world. We were a kind of a battling and kind of crazy family. And she was so nice, I didn't trust her. I was like how -- I don't know anybody this nice. And the crazy, sad part was that she stayed nice all the way to the end.

KING: Yes.

O'NEAL: And it broke my heart when I was not allowed in to say good-bye to her.

KING: Well, how old were you when Ryan and her got together?

O'NEAL: Thirteen, sir.

KING: Did you live with them?

O'NEAL: I was in and out. I've had a work permit since I was nine. I was in and out of the house trying to make a career for myself. And so I was in and out. Of course she was always around.

KING: Were you close with your biological mother? Are you close?

O'NEAL: My mother died back in '97. And, yes, my mother was the light of my life and actually gave me all the best parts of me.

KING: Were she and Farrah close?

O'NEAL: They had met once. They had a lot in common, just because they were two lovely southern belles. Farrah was from Texas and my mother was from south Georgia.

KING: You weren't allowed to attend the funeral at the cathedral. Why not?

O'NEAL: I guess I'm a bad guy.

KING: Who didn't let you attend?

O'NEAL: Ryan didn't want me in. I call him Ryan now. I've had to let go of him as being my dad, not that he was ever really a dad. But he said, no, no Griffin. Tatum, Patrick, even my daughter was allowed in. It's OK. I said my good-bye to Farrah the day that she died.

KING: You did speak to her?

O'NEAL: No, no, no. I said my good-byes inside my heart and with the clouds and with the higher power that I believe in. No, I had not seen her since the day before -- the day before my father tried to shoot me in the face.

KING: We'll get to that. Just weeks before Farrah's death, your father gave an interview to NBC about his feelings for her and her fight against cancer. Let's look at that.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RYAN O'NEAL, ACTOR: I know this, that in the last two years I love her more than I ever loved her, ever. She's so much more of a woman and a -- powerful, courageous, fearless, and I look at her with awe.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: How do you feel looking at that?

O'NEAL: I remember when she was diagnosed with cancer and my dad got upset and he goes, no, I'm dying. You're not dying. I'm dying. And I said, well, dad, that sound a little selfish because you're in remission. You have been in remission for years now. It was very, very --

KING: He was mad at her having cancer?

O'NEAL: Yes, because the attention was diverted to Farrah. He didn't like that.

KING: He's a narcissist?

O'NEAL: Absolute complete narcissist in every way.

KING: Are you saying that interview was crocodile tears.

O'NEAL: I haven't seen a tear yet.

KING: Give us your description of the relationship between -- she wasn't your stepmother, because they didn't get married. The relationship between your father and Farrah, how would you describe it?

O'NEAL: It was bombastic at times. There were great times. There was very hard times. By the time Red was five, they lived in separate rooms in a very large house. So I think his room was about a mile and a half from her room. So I guess that's what kept their relationship somewhat solid, because they weren't in each other's face all the time.

Farrah was a very, very strict Catholic, and she wanted it to be done the proper way, the way that Catholicism teaches.

KING: Was he not faithful to her? O'NEAL: Faithless. He has no faith.

KING: Was he faithful to her in the marriage -- in the relationship?

O'NEAL: No.

KING: He saw other women?

O'NEAL: Are you kidding? She walked in on him and he was with some other woman.

KING: Do you know this for a fact or is it hearsay?

O'NEAL: No, sir, I know this for a fact. She told me. He forgot. He locked every lock in the house, except he forgot that she had a remote control for the garage, and there she is.

KING: Why do you think she left her entire estate to Redmond and none to Ryan?

O'NEAL: I think in the end -- I don't think she was as unconscious as they thought she was. When you're dying of cancer, because I watched my mother die of cancer, you're in and out of a morphine haze. I think she saw the transparency between her, my father and Alana. And I think there's a little bit more to be said about that. We'll find out later.

KING: Do you think they had a relationship?

O'NEAL: Can't say they did. I know my father very well. He's a hard one to fend off.

KING: Did you expect something in the will?

O'NEAL: I don't care. I live a great life today. Not that I'm bragging about my 401(k) plan, but I insure my family. I have a 401(k) plan. I'm the happiest I have ever been, sober almost four years. And I have no complaints.

KING: You're married.

O'NEAL: I'm married to a beautiful woman. I have three kids actually. I have a 20-year-old daughter. I have a 15-year-old son and a two-year-old. Yes, I know. I don't know what to say.

KING: We'll be right back with more, including we'll have a statement from Ryan O'Neal. Don't go away.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: Griffin O'Neal has a very interesting occupation. He makes guitars for the Taylor Guitar Company. He's a maker of guitars. In advance of this interview, we got a statement from Arnold Robinson, Ryan O'Neal's publicist. "Griffin has not had a relationship with Farrah or Ryan for many years. Therefore, there is no way he would have any knowledge of what was going on in their lives." Want to respond?

O'NEAL: That I would have no idea?

KING: No.

O'NEAL: Oh, no, I spoke to Red at least once a month, the son, my brother.

KING: You had a relationship with Farrah to the end?

O'NEAL: We had a relationship through text messaging. I sent her messages of my son. I said, I love you and please --

KING: So that statement is false?

O'NEAL: I don't even know who this person is.

KING: He's representing your father.

O'NEAL: This person has no idea what they're talking about.

KING: So you had a relationship.

O'NEAL: Oh, yes.

KING: When was the last night you talk to your father?

O'NEAL: The night he tried to shoot me in the face.

KING: Tell me what happened. By the way, he was charged and the charges were dismissed.

O'NEAL: Of course. He was also the one arrested.

KING: It was dismissed.

O'NEAL: Of course.

KING: What's your side?

O'NEAL: Well, you know what? I had finally had enough. My father, you know -- my brother would do like a seven-day -- yes, my brother Red would do a seven-day detox, and he'd split on the sixth day. And then -- so my dad would get mad and not pay the detox center.

So this happened to every detox center in Los Angeles. What ended up happening was Redmond was no longer allowed at a detox center in Los Angeles, which basically put the weight on me. So now dad got home. I had my brother locked down. I said, listen, dude, I'm sorry. I love you to death. He was broken. My brother said, I didn't think anybody was going to stop me. I didn't think anybody loved me and thank you.

He cried and held Jo-Jo, my wife, and held me and held my friend, and said, I didn't think anybody was going to stop me because my dad just let him do whatever he wanted to do, supplied him with cash for his drugs, supplied him with everything. It was a losing battle.

KING: What happened that night?

O'NEAL: That night I got home. Dad didn't like the fact the door was off the hinges, because I had to take the door off the hinges. If you closed it, he'd have dope stashed everywhere in his room, and he'd be loaded.

KING: Why did he try to shoot you?

O'NEAL: Because I said, dad, if you want to take care of this yourself, because I know you don't know what to do, I said, you're on your own. You're on your own. I don't want nothing to do. And then I started to tell him about how I felt, about how I felt about his fathering, about how I felt how he treated me when I was a child, and my sister and my mother.

KING: This was how long ago?

O'NEAL: This was that night. This was Farrah's birthday three years ago -- two years ago.

KING: So what happened?

O'NEAL: He went crazy. He went crazy. And then my girl goes, he's got a stick. I'm packing my stuff upstairs.

KING: What's a stick?

O'NEAL: I don't know. She didn't know what it was either. All I know is I got stabbed in the side with a fireplace poker. Not the shovel and not the brush. It was the gnarly part of the poker.

KING: And then he shot you?

O'NEAL: No, no. Then I said -- and as he's swinging back, he hits my girl in the face, crushing four bones in her cheeks, put nine stitches above her head. He glances at her. I grab the poker and I say, don't. Of course, all 237 pounds of him, he falls on my eight and a half month pregnant wife, right on her stomach.

I grabbed the poker out of his hand and said don't move. I will bury this in your head. Don't move. My dad is a very, very, very violent man.

KING: Did you call the police?

O'NEAL: Oh, yes. We had to. She was bleeding.

KING: Why were the charges dropped then?

O'NEAL: Well, because, honestly, I didn't know how she got the injury. My dad said he did it. He hit her. I'm like, how could I hit her? She was behind you, dad. I didn't tell him this. All she says is I saw was a poker hit me in the face.

KING: No evidence?

O'NEAL: No evidence. I was honest all the way through. I said I don't know how she got the wound. I don't know how. She says she got hit. Either way, I was not the perpetrator. The perpetrator was the guy who stabbed me in the side and hurt me.

I brought pictures. You'll see. I have a gnarly hole. Gnarly is a California word. Sorry about that.

KING: We'll be back with Griffin O'Neal in 60 seconds.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: We'll be back with Griffin in a couple of moments. Farrah was a guest on this show in '94. She and Ryan had been together for more than a dozen years at that point. I asked her about the relationship. Take a look.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KING: What's the secret, if there is a secret, to keeping that relationship going, in as difficult a center as you live in?

FAWCETT: I think you have to -- what is the secret?

KING: There's no real secret. What is your key?

FAWCETT: He makes me laugh. And I make him laugh. We love each other. I respect him and he respect me, although sometimes I have to say, that's not respectful. I think it's we're committed. There's a deep love, a deep support system.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: That was 15 years ago. Do you agree it was a deep love?

O'NEAL: I do believe at first. I do believe at first they loved each other. I really do. But my dad, you know, he was very hard to love. He was hard to love.

KING: She wasn't lying, was she?

O'NEAL: No, but you could see she was hesitant. I'm not sure she was sure. They had a son together. Now you're locked in.

KING: Let me take a break. I'm going to ask about him when we come back. Don't go away.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(NEWS BREAK)

KING: We're with Griffin O'Neal. Let's talk about your half- brother, Redmond. In the documentary "Farrah's Story," Farrah is seen reading an emotional memory to her son. Watch.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

FAWCETT: For Redmond, my boy, I will always be there. When you are so very young, I will be there. When you fall, I will be there. When you are over six feet tall, I will be there. When one day you wake up and realize that I'm gone, I will still be there, always.

Always with you, forever in you. Redmond, my boy.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: Are you close with Redmond?

O'NEAL: Yes.

KING: He's been arrested several times for drug possession, serving time now for probation violation, although he was allowed to attend the funeral. When did you last talk with him?

O'NEAL: Two Sundays ago.

KING: In prison?

O'NEAL: Yes, sir.

KING: You visit him?

O'NEAL: Yes, sir.

KING: When does he get out?

O'NEAL: I don't know. He has another case pending. I mean, he's going to do a county year. It's not a nice place.

KING: What's his problem?

O'NEAL: Well --

KING: You've had drug problems.

O'NEAL: Yes, sir.

KING: What's his?

O'NEAL: His drug of choice, Larry, is more. That means whatever you've got, he'll take it. And, you know, he needs to love himself. He needs to find the love for himself. He is an amazing musician. He is an amazing individual.

He definitely turned left instead of right. I had so many good dreams for him. I wanted to get him out of the United States and say, just go live in Italy, go live in Spain. Get out of L.A. It is killing you.

KING: He seemed very close with his mother?

O'NEAL: He was her pride and joy. You know? And, you know, Redmond hung out with Ryan a lot, because Ryan allowed the drug use. He allowed the drug use in the house. And that was one of the reasons me and my dad fought. I said, you know what? You are killing your son. I don't think you know what you're doing.

KING: Are Ryan and Redmond close?

O'NEAL: Well, I think they are probably going to get a lot closer now, since Redmond has all the money. Who knows? Yes, they are close but for reasons that are ill. Ill reasons.

KING: Like?

O'NEAL: They party together. They were both arrested. My dad had more dope on him than Redmond did. This isn't the '70s anymore.

KING: When you were addicted, did your step-father party with you?

O'NEAL: I was 11 years old when he gave me cocaine and said we're going to see a long movie called "Barry Lindon." It's a very long movie. Maybe this well help you. I was 11. I look down at my little two-year-old and I go, you know what, I'm so sorry, but I could never, ever, ever do that to my child.

Yes, I have had a life time of hellacious nights crying, staying up too late, wondering what I did to my life. It destroyed me. It wasted many, many years of my life.

KING: What's your relationship, by the way, with Tatum?

O'NEAL: We're best friends. I worry about her.

KING: How is she doing?

O'NEAL: She's battling. It's been a battle for her, too. I guess people use substances to shut off the noise in their head. What ends up happening is the noises go away for a second, and then they come back completely amplified and then you are in a deeper hole than you were.

She is struggling to stay sober. I think she's OK now, but I have had to push a -- I had to put some distance between us for a while, because I didn't think she was that healthy.

KING: Why are you going public like this?

O'NEAL: You know, when I saw the Barbara Walters interview, I was screaming at the TV, going is it only me that sees this? Is it me? Does anybody else see this? This was absolute BS. I could not believe it.

My dad saying, you know, did she say yes. Well, no, she can't talk but we'll nod her head for her. I was turning inside out. I was like, you have to be kidding me. How absolutely disgusting was that?

KING: It is not true? O'NEAL: No. It's on Barbara Walters. He says he is going to nod her head for her, because he really wanted to marry her. She didn't want to marry him. She loved him, but she did not want to marry him. My dad was not nice to her.

KING: You went public because of that interview?

O'NEAL: You know what? Everybody's had a lot of questions on what the heck happened to the O'Neal family.

KING: Shakespearian.

O'NEAL: Yes. And I'm -- I don't want to hide anymore.

KING: Was it ever nice?

O'NEAL: Yes, of course. It was money. And I think you misconstrued money with niceness. So, oh, if there's money, you can do things and you are provided other little things and opportunities to do whatever. But, you know, if you are raised around drugs and alcohol, then the money becomes something else. Money becomes something you can procure more dope with. And, you know, it was just decadent. And to me it wasn't really real.

KING: Back in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: We want to repeat this. Griffin has made some serious charges tonight. We have not spoken to Ryan. Here is a statement from his publicist: "Griffin has not had a relationship with Farrah or Ryan for many years. Therefore, there is no way he would have any knowledge of what was going on in their lives."

We read that earlier and you answered earlier.

O'NEAL: Absolutely.

KING: Been reporting that your father says he didn't recognize Tatum at the funeral, and when she embraced him, he asked, do you have a drink on you? Do you have a car? What do you think of that story?

O'NEAL: He was flirting with everybody.

KING: With his daughter?

O'NEAL: He doesn't -- My dad is getting up in the years now. I don't think he really recognizes people that he's known for years.

KING: His daughter.

O'NEAL: It was his daughter. He didn't realize it was her.

KING: Something about you; in 1986, you were driving a speedboat when a horrible accident occurred, killed Francis Ford Coppola's son, John Carlo. You were acquitted of manslaughter, but convicted of negligent operation of a boat. The trial judge said you had a history of lying with little respect for others. Was that statement true in 1986?

O'NEAL: Well, I never met the judge before, and I didn't know if I had a history of lying or not. But I probably did. I -- that was one of the hardest times in my life. And I did lie. I said it wasn't me that was driving the boat. And I owned up to that. And I will live with that every day.

KING: You -- this whole life has been incredible for you. You must look in the mirror and say --

O'NEAL: I try to avoid mirrors, Larry.

KING: You are also angry about Alana Stewart, too?

O'NEAL: I don't trust her. She was selling Farrah's stuff on eBay the day Farrah died. Trust me, I know who she sells through on eBay. I am disgusted with those people. I thought they were exploiting her. I think that they will continue to exploit her through the "Farrah Story II" and Alana's new book.

KING: We are almost out of time. Get one more quick call in. Detroit, hello. Detroit, are you there?

CALLER: Hello.

KING: Quickly, go ahead.

CALLER: I want to ask Mr. Griffin if he is worried about any relationship that is left over with his dad, that if there will be a relationship?

KING: Any hope of that?

O'NEAL: You know, I can honestly say my dad has not called me once. He has shown zero remorse for the 22 stitches he put in my wife's face. And he showed very little remorse for trying to shoot me in the face. I'm having a hard time thinking there is going to be some reconciliation.

KING: I don't like to make judgments. I don't think you love your father.

O'NEAL: Really? You know what is sad --

KING: I have come to that conclusion.

O'NEAL: I would forgive him if he showed remorse and apologized. You know what? I miss my father. I miss my father the way -- there was glimpses of wonderfulness in my father.

KING: Thanks for coming forward.

O'NEAL: Good luck.

KING: Griffin O'Neal.

Kelly Ripa and Mark Consuelos are here tomorrow. Time now for our gal, Erica Hill. She is sitting in for Anderson Cooper. Here is Erica and "AC 360."

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0908/03/lkl.01.html

Ling & Lee On Way Home Now; Shooting in Pennsylvania; Interview with Michael Jackson's Manager; Michael Jackson's Manager Describes Day of Jackson's Death

Aired August 4, 2009 - 21:00 ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


LARRY KING, HOST: Tonight, breaking news -- American journalists Laura Ling and Euna Lee on their way home. President Bill Clinton secures their freedom from North Korea during a high stakes meeting with Kim Jong Il. Five harrowing months in captivity and a sentence of 12 years of hard labor are now behind them.

Plus, Michael Jackson exclusive -- his manager reveals for the first time how he told the children about their father's death, how they reacted and how they're going to make it without him, next on LARRY KING LIVE.

Good evening.

The words two families and a nation have been waiting to hear -- President Clinton has safely left North Korea with Laura Ling and Euna Lee. They are now en route to Los Angeles. There you see them at the airport in North Korea, where Laura and Euna will be united with their families. That's them boarding the plane. A long flight to L.A. They'll arrive in L.A. Tomorrow morning.

Joining us, three outstanding journalists.

In New York, Dan Rather, the anchor and managing editor of HDNet's "Dan Rather Reports."

In Beijing Games, Mike Chinoy, the author of "Meltdown: The Inside Story of the North Korean Nuclear Crisis," a former CNN senior Asia correspondent. He's been to North Korea 14 times.

And in Washington, Jill Dougherty, CNN's veteran foreign affairs correspondent.

Dan, on a personal note, close member of the -- of the Lee family told me early this morning that they knew this was a done deal when Clinton was on the way there.

Does that surprise you?

DAN RATHER, ANCHOR, MANAGING EDITOR, "DAN RATHER REPORTS": No, because you don't move a big asset diplomatically, such as Bill Clinton, without it being clearly settled in advance that he's going to get what he's coming for. So that doesn't surprise me at all, Larry.

KING: Do you think there was a quid pro-quo here, Dan? RATHER: I have no way of knowing, Larry. I do think that this could be a turning point in resuming some kind of dialogue with the North Koreans. Certainly -- and I say this based on my own reporting, talking to people in the North Korean government and others -- they certainly hope that it will be. As you noted and CNN has been reporting, the White House and the State Department are keeping very mum about this whole thing.

However, it could be a turning point in the dialogue. The North Koreans almost -- they badly wanted respect. And this shows respect.

I'm told that when the conversations first began about, well, whom should we send, if we're going to send anybody, vice president -- former Vice President Gore, perhaps Governor Richardson of New Mexico, who knows the North Koreans well.

But what I'm told is that the North Koreans said one of the Clintons. And, of course, it turned out to be Bill Clinton.

So point number one...

KING: All right, Jill...

RATHER: ...Bill Clinton still has it, that is...

KING: Yes, you're not kidding.

RATHER: ...in terms of his recognition, whether you agree with it or not, around the world. The North Koreans saw him as "the big guy."

KING: Jill...

RATHER: The big guy came, he got what he came for. We'll have to see where it goes from here. But there's no question in my mind, the North Koreans hope this will read -- lead to a whole new area...

KING: Jill...

RATHER: ...an era in negotiations.

KING: Jill Dougherty, do you concur?

JILL DOUGHERTY, CNN FOREIGN AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: I do concur that that's the hope. But I don't necessarily think that it is going to happen, because there is a division in these two things. There is the personal story of these two journalists. And then there's the other story, and that is getting North Korea to come back to the six party talks, not just talking directly with the United States, but doing what the administration wants, which is coming back and talking with the other countries that are in these six party talks.

And the North Koreans, so far, are, it seems, willing and ready to talk immediately to the United States, but not to the other countries. And that's the problem. KING: There you see President Clinton greeting them as they arrive on the plane and get set for the flight to L.A. They'll be here in Los Angeles tomorrow morning.

Mike Chinoy, I guess nobody knows North Korea better than you.

Why did they take this action?

MIKE CHINOY, NORTH KOREA EXPERT: Why did the North Koreans take this action?

Well, I think, it's been clear ever since these two women slipped across the border and were captured by North Korean border guards that this was not a problem the North Korean leadership wanted. And the signals have all along been that they wanted to do a deal. These women were pretty well treated in captivity. They were kept in a guest House in Pyongyang, not in a prison. They were given consular access to the Swedish ambassador. They were allowed to call home.

And I think the North Koreans were waiting for the right moment and the clear signal that the United States was prepared to have a very senior official go and try and break the ice. And that moment has now arrived.

I think critical here is going to be what Kim Jong Il and Bill Clinton talked about and whether or not in what Kim Jong Il said there's enough for Clinton to report back to the Obama administration and for the Obama administration to then try and move on that and see whether there's some hope for getting diplomacy underway.

If the administration remains fixated that the North has to agree now to the six party process, we're going to have trouble.

But I think there is -- I think Dan's right, there's a lot of potential here for the U.S. and North Korea to try and ratchet the tension down and get diplomacy going again.

KING: We have a statement, folks, from the families of the two journalists. And here's what they say, in part: "We are so grateful to our government, President Obama, Secretary Clinton the United States State Department, for their dedication and hard work on behalf of American citizens. We especially want to thank President Bill Clinton for taking on such an arduous mission and Vice President Al Gore for his tireless efforts to bring Laura and Euna home. We're counting the seconds to hold Laura and Euna in our arms."

Dan, why Bill Clinton and not the Secretary of State, Hilary Clinton?

RATHER: Well, number one, he is a former president of the United States.

Number two, he may be, with the possible exception now of President Obama, the best known American. This was the biggest piece on the chessboard that they could expect to get. And let me say, in reference to something that was talked about earlier, that I noticed today in pictures of the arrival of President Clinton -- and I think it should be underscored -- that there on the tarmac to meet them was Kim Kye Gwan. He was the Korean negotiator when the six party talks were underway.

Now, they have pulled out of it. But I think it should be noted he was at the airport to meet President Clinton, as were Madame Choi, who is an expert on Western media relations and putting forth a better image for the North Vietnamese, to say nothing of several other people there.

But I think the fact that this guy who was the chief negotiator for the North Koreans in the six party talks was there to meet him -- and many people think he is number two -- number three. He's two places away from the very top, Kim Jong Il himself.

So I don't want to attach too much to this. There's a lot we don't know. But I did find it interesting...

KING: Yes.

RATHER: ...that that man was on the tarmac to meet Bill Clinton when he arrived.

KING: We'll be right back with more on this fascinating story. It's not often in this business good news carries the day. Good news is carrying the day.

We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: We're back.

The families of Laura and Euna were on this show back on June 1st.

Here's what Lisa Ling had to say at that time.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP FROM JUNE 1, 2009)

LISA LING, LAURA LING'S SISTER: We don't -- we don't know the details about what happened on March 17th. But if at any point the girls went into North Korea, we apologize on their behalf. They never intended to do so. And we are sorry. And we beg your government to allow my sister and Michael's wife and Hannah's mother to come home.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: By the way, Al Gore and Joe Hyatt, the co-founders of Current media and employers of Laura Ling and Euna Lee released this statement tonight, reading, in part: "We want to thank the Obama administration for its continuous and determined efforts to achieve this outcome and President Clinton for his willingness to undertake the mission. All of us at Current are overjoyed that Laura and Euna's safe return. Our hearts go out to them and to their families for persevering through this horrible experience."

Jill, if they wanted to make a deal and they were not happy with any kind of imprisonment, why were they so tough at the sentencing?

DOUGHERTY: Because they believed that these women had broken North Korean law. And you have to note that right up until the end, that is what they said. And when Secretary Clinton, going back a couple of weeks ago, when she changed the message that she had -- initially, she was saying North Korean laws -- you know, this is a bogus charge. I'm not quoting, but this is a bogus charge.

And then -- and the women should be released on a humanitarian basis. And then later, she said it should be an amnesty. And there is an understanding of that. It was kind of an indirect way of saying that these women might have been culpable, might have broken the law.

So the North Koreans were able to kind of face right up until the end by saying, yes, she broke our law, however, we are magnanimous and we are going to forgive them and let them go home. So that was important for the North Koreans. And it was important for the US, too.

KING: Dan, is this a passing incident in the scene of things or is it historic?

Could it lead -- are you optimistic this could lead to bigger things?

RATHER: Well, I'm an optimist by nature, by experience, Larry. I simply don't know. But I do want to point out, if you've got just a second. I went through my notes -- that back in the forum here in New York City in March of 2007, Henry Kissinger and Madeline Albright, the former secretary of State, stressed that, in their opinion, that North Korea needed to have a deal in place before the end of the Bush administration, because regardless of the election, with a new administration, it would be tougher to get a deal.

And my notes show here that the man I mentioned earlier, Kim Kye Gwan, a big man -- a big player in North Korea -- responded by saying here's a hint, "Send somebody who's high enough up to deal with our leadership and a deal will get done."

Now, it never got done. I think the best we can say about this, looking with some optimism to it, that the door has opened and we'll have to see where it goes from here.

But make no mistake -- the North Koreans are...

KING: All right...

RATHER: ...they're eager to keep their respect. But they're eager for the world to know -- this is their viewpoint -- that they're credible, that they will be tough negotiators on the nuclear weapons issue, but that they do want to deal.

Now, whether the United States government... KING: Laura...

RATHER: ...feels they can be trusted or not, of course, is a another matter.

KING: Laura called her family after she was detained.

Here's Lisa Ling describing a phone call from her sister.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LING: She sounds scared, Larry. I mean she sounds absolutely terrified. You know, it's been almost three months. And the communication with her has been so limited. We got that one phone call. That was the first time I'd heard her voice in two-and-a-half months. And we've gotten one letter. Our family got one letter and her husband got one letter. And then that's it. The only people who have seen them, outside of the North Koreans, is the Swedish delegation.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: Mike Chinoy, based on your vast experience with this, are you optimistic?

CHINOY: I'm not sure I would be optimistic, because this is a very, very complicated issue. But one of the things that was true over the last eight-and-a-half years has been that the United States government has not had contact with the people who make the decisions in North Korea, and specifically with the man at the top, Kim Jong Il. All the negotiations were done at a lower level. And in the North Korean system, he calls the shots.

And so to engage him directly, to figure out where he's coming from, what might be possible, what are his concerns, is a very important first step. And it almost doesn't matter about the nitty- gritty of the details he went over with Bill Clinton. If the overall impression is that Kim wants a deal, then there is something out there to work with, although the specific issues of denuclearization, stopping missile production and exports and so on, are very, very tough.

But I think there's a potential opening if the Obama administration can creatively build on what Bill Clinton has achieved here.

KING: Well said.

Dan Rather, Mike Chinoy, Jill Dougherty, I'm sure we'll be calling upon you again.

They're expected back home tomorrow. Governor Bill Richardson knows the territory. His insights next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) KING: Bill Richardson has held many key posts with regard to things foreign. He is now, of course, the Democrat of New Mexico, the governor of that great state.

When you heard, Bill, that former President Clinton was going there, did you know they were going to come back?

GOV. BILL RICHARDSON (D), NEW MEXICO: Yes. I'd been aware of this potential trip. And I knew that if somebody of President Clinton's stature was sent as a special envoy, that the North Koreans would receive him.

I knew, more or less, that it would be good news, that we'd get the release of the two American journalists. You don't send an envoy like Bill Clinton without some kind of a guarantee of a result. And so I felt very good about the potential release of the two American journalists. So I was very pleased when that had happened.

KING: Had the Obama administration kept you informed of this?

RICHARDSON: Yes. Yes, I'd been working with them. They consulted me. I've been working with the North Koreans, with the families. But I wasn't involved in the last intricate negotiations that sent President Clinton.

But I was very pleased when I learned that, number one, the word amnesty was being used by both sides. That means that the girls -- this would be the basis for the two women, that they would be pardoned and that they wouldn't serve the hard labor and that they would be released by a presidential pardon by Kim Jong Il.

But Kim Jong Il getting President Clinton to come, it solidifies his domestic base, because he's been sick. He wants to be succeeded by one of his sons. There seems to be some turmoil there internally.

So this was important for Kim Jong Il to get somebody like Bill Clinton, who he'd been trying to get for years, to visit North Korea when he was president.

KING: OK. Right back with Governor Bill Richardson of New Mexico right after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: We're back with Governor Richardson.

Governor, have you talked to the families at all yet?

RICHARDSON: Yes, yes, I spoke to Lisa Ling, who had been in regular contact. And she was just ecstatic, because it's been nearly five months. The contact has been limited. But our sense was that the North Koreans were feeding them, treating them properly, they were in a guest house.

But what was the most damaging was the sense of isolation, that they were going to be sentenced to 12 years of hard labor, not knowing what was going to happen, limited telephone contact.

But Lisa and her family, obviously, are ecstatic. And they've done so much to raise awareness of this issue and be diplomatic. I know they've been on your show several times. And I think their behavior is a model of how, when you are dealing with these very, very negative hostage situations, how families can be diplomatic, yet strong, and raise consciousness of the plight of their own relatives.

KING: This being a pardon, Governor, was it important that kind of both sides admit they made a mistake -- the girls made a mistake?

RICHARDSON: Yes. Yes. I think it was important, after the trial, that -- that the fact that they were in the country -- they crossed in -- in an illegal way. But it wasn't espionage. They were doing their jobs. They were journalists. But they crossed. And the North Koreans needed that kind of apology. This is why the word amnesty was used.

And after that, there was the view that the pardon could take place by Kim Jong Il. And that's what I believe triggered the visit by President Clinton. And I believe only somebody of his stature could have gotten this accomplished. So he deserves a lot of credit. But, also, Kim Jong Il needed this visit for his own internal political reasons.

KING: Do you think, Governor, this might lead to direct talks?

RICHARDSON: It might, because there are no talks whatsoever. In fact, I've never seen the relationship so negative. North Korea has refused to talk to us, to engage in the six party talks. There have been U.N. sanctions. So maybe this will open up some possible -- a process for either direct talks or them rejoining the six party talks or simply sending an envoy from the United States to really negotiate about how we can reduce the nuclear arsenal of the North Koreans in exchange for food, fuel -- although the North Koreans and the U.S. seem to think that maybe that's not the way to go, that the best thing is the North Koreans want face-to-face talks with us, because they think they're the major power in Asia.

They don't want intermediaries. They don't want the six party talks. They want to do it directly with us. And perhaps this trip was a signal. And this is, perhaps, the message that President Clinton may be taking back to President Obama, that the North Koreans are ready to talk, but only directly with us. I have no knowledge of that...

KING: No, I understand.

RICHARDSON: ...but I suspect that's what they may be saying.

KING: Governor, you supported the president.

Is this a big day for Obama?

RICHARDSON: It is a big day for Obama, because he skillfully sent an emissary -- well, agreed to send an emissary unofficially. He's not a spokesman for the administration, President Clinton, but he is a former president.

And credit should go to President Clinton, who, I believe, undertook the mission; to Secretary of State Clinton, who was very engaged in this; and I guess partially to the North Koreans, who maybe are sending a signal that they're ready to talk by this humanitarian release.

But the biggest victors are the families, Lisa Ling, the way they conducted themselves. And the best news about everything is that these two American journalists, these women who were only doing their jobs and doing it very well, are coming home after five months of very grueling captivity.

KING: Do you expect to meet with the families, Bill?

You've been so close to this.

RICHARDSON: Well, I've -- I've met with Lisa Ling. I suspect we will. But I was just happy to play a very small part. But I think credit goes to these negotiations and to the Obama administration, which I believe is behind-the-scenes, but not directly involved.

And the outcome is good. And now, hopefully, this will lead to talks that will lessen tensions. That's in everybody's interests, Larry. You don't want a North Korea with several nuclear weapons, with a million men and women in arms, with missiles, with a number of land mines next to 27,000 American troops in South Korea. We all should try to lessen tensions here, no matter how bad any actor is.

KING: Yes. It's realistic.

Thank you, Governor, so much.

We'll be calling on you again.

RICHARDSON: Thank you, Larry.

KING: Governor Bill Richardson, Democrat of New Mexico, former ambassador to the U.N.

The man who told the Jackson children that their father had died is here. He'll tell us what happened on that sad day when LARRY KING LIVE returns.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

KING: We've got some other news for you. Five people are confirmed dead in a shooting, including the shooter. Several others injured. It took place inside a fitness center in Collier, Pennsylvania tonight.

Police received a phone call at 8:16 p.m., reporting a shooting inside the L.A. Fitness Gym. It's about eight miles southeast of Pittsburgh. What you're seeing now is a live shot of that center. No further information was available about the victims or the status of the reported shooter.

We now welcome to LARRY KING LIVE, finally, Frank DiLeo, Michael Jackson's manager. He worked for Michael from 1984 to 1989 and was rehired by Michael earlier this year, calling you out of retirement.

Why did he bring you back?

FRANK DILEO, MICHAEL JACKSON'S MANAGER: Well, first of all, you should understand that Michael and I have been speaking for the last couple of years when he came back from (INAUDIBLE). We were talking primarily about movie projects. And then he just called me and said, listen, man, would you like to manage me again?

He says, I need somebody that understands the music business and the touring business. And I said, sure, love to.

KING: The day he died, tell us how you first learned.

DILEO: I was having lunch at the Beverly Hilton. And I got a phone call from a fan who was...

KING: A fan?

DILEO: A fan who said, Frank, do you know there's an ambulance in front of Michael's house?

And I said, no, I don't, but I'm going to look right into it. And I hung up. I called Michael's assistant. And I said -- his name is Michael, also.

I said Michael, is there an ambulance at the house?

He said, that's what I heard. He said, I'm on my way. And I said, well, I'll be there in one second. I went in to get my ticket for the car. And I called Randi Phillips and said look, you're closer...

KING: Randi of...

DILEO: AEG.

KING: Right.

DILEO: I said you're closer to Michael's house than I am at this moment. Go there right away, I'll meet you there. Drove there, the ambulance had already left, asked Randy. He turned around. I came from the other direction. I went to pull in, they said, Frank, he left. I said where did he go? To the hospital. I drove to UCLA.

KING: What was the scene like? Where were the children?

DILEO: The children were in another room down the hall. They brought Randy and I back. We were the first two people there. And they were working on him in the room.

KING: They were still working on him?

DILEO: Yes.

KING: He was alive at that point?

DILEO: I don't know. I said to Randy, geez, I think he's alive. We have a shot here he'll be OK. When the nurse came out and I looked at her and she looked at me, I almost fainted.

KING: Because she said --

DILEO: She just looked at me and said he's not going to make it. He's gone. But we'll keep working on him until his mother gets here.

KING: Who finally told you he was dead?

DILEO: That nurse did.

KING: You had to tell the children?

DILEO: I had to tell Katherine first. And I told her with a doctor and a social worker. And it was pretty emotional. She grabbed me and cried and we hugged and cried together. And then I had to tell the children.

In the meantime, I called Joe Jackson in between. But he'd already known. I gave him my sympathy, and I went in and told the children.

KING: How do you do something like that? No experience is there?

DILEO: No, I've never lost somebody like that. It was very difficult. I went in with a social worker and a doctor. And just had to say -- they knew, they knew. And they got up and I said, I'm sorry, but your father's passed away. And they hung on to me for a while. We all cried.

KING: How did you take it?

DILEO: Very bad. I mean, I've cried for days, and it's a lonely feeling, because I'm not family, but I'm a friend.

KING: You were more than a manager?

DILEO: Oh, yes, he was my friend. Forget the manager part. He was my friend. And we were close. We talked a lot. Not as often as I wanted to. But we worked well together years before and we were working well now.

KING: Did he seem physically OK?

DILEO: Yes, he was physically OK.

KING: He was rehearsing, right?

DILEO: He was rehearsing well, eating well. We were making sure that he had the right protein shakes, the right food. We gave him chicken. You know, we brought him food to eat. He ate it. He'd say I'm not hungry, but he'd eat it.

KING: Was he insured, by the way?

DILEO: Yes, there's insurance, not on him, but on non- performance. Although, it's AEG and Michael Jackson's company.

KING: So they get money?

DILEO: They get -- the company goes towards the estate.

KING: Does the dispute --

DILEO: When it pays off. It hasn't paid off yet.

KING: There's a dispute, Frank, about how many shows he agreed to perform. Here's what Leonard Rowe, the long time friend of Joe Jackson, told us a few weeks ago, watch.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LEONARD ROWE, FRIEND OF JOE JACKSON: Larry, the first conversation I had with Michael Jackson the night -- it was a Friday night, the night he asked me to come and go to work for him. This is what he told me. He said, I only agreed to do 10 shows for AEG. I never agreed to do 50.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: Is that true, Frank?

DILEO: No. Michael knew there was more than ten shows. He knew there were 50 shows. Sometimes Michael would like to say, gee, I'm only doing ten. I woke up, now I'm doing 40 more.

KING: He might have said that to Leonard?

DILEO: Yes, but what he was saying was what by popular demand I have to do 40. And incidentally, there were enough ticket requests to do 85.

KING: Eighty five?

DILEO: Eighty five. And you have to understand this also, the manager at the time and three attorneys read the contract to him. He knew how many shows he had to do.

KING: You read that contract?

DILEO: I read it too. And I know what's in the contract. And there was a minimum and a maximum.

KING: What's the minimum?

DILEO: You have to ask AEG. I'm not allowed to divulge. Not from AEG, but Michael's sake.

KING: We'll be right back. Friday night, Jermaine Jackson's here. Don't go away.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: We're with Frank DiLeo, Michael Jackson's manager. You wanted to add something about the dates.

DILEO: Just the fact that it came out to 50 was because he wanted to beat Prince's record of 21, and be in the Guinness Book of World Records. He wanted to do 50 to put it out of touch.

KING: Really, he was competitive that way?

DILEO: Michael's a very competitive person in everything he does.

KING: All right. Frank, what about this dispute now? You know Mr. Branca. Who gets to be the handler of the funds? Katherine is the -- she's in charge, but they've got 60 days. How do you read it?

DILEO: Well, I read it this way. Branca and Maclaine are in charge.

KING: For 60 days?

DILEO: For 60 days. I'm sure something will be worked out with Mrs. Jackson. It may be her. She may want to appoint somebody. I think they're going to try to work that out. Mrs. Jackson is one of the loveliest women in the world. I think she's going to make the greatest grandmother ever.

I had two grandmothers. If I can pick another one, I'd want to be her grandchild. Whether she wants to personally haggle with movie companies and record companies is another thing.

KING: What do you think of the Branca companies?

DILEO: Yes, Michael liked them. He wouldn't have put them in there if he didn't like them.

KING: Do you think they can work together with Mrs. Jackson?

DILEO: Yes, absolutely, absolutely. They can work with her.

KING: Joe Jackson and Leonard Rowe were on this show. And Joe said that they seemed to have -- not imply, they said that Michael was being controlled. Watch this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ROWE: Michael Jackson's life at the end was being controlled and manipulated. Michael Jackson was not allowed to make his own decisions. He was not allowed to hire who he wanted to hire to work for him. Michael Jackson was being told what to do. And people were controlling Michael Jackson. The same people that were controlling Michael Jackson financially.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: Want to comment on that?

DILEO: Absolutely. That is as false as they get. Michael Jackson has done and always did what he wanted to do.

KING: No one controlled him?

DILEO: No one controlled him. Listen, when I worked from 1984, you want to see Michael, call up. Is Michael available? What time? You come over. Same thing now. You want to see Michael Jackson? What time? You come over.

If he wants to see you, he's seeing you. If he doesn't want to see you --

KING: was not controlling him?

DILEO: How could they control him?

KING: Or out to harm him?

DILEO: Absolutely not. Absolutely not. Listen, this is a devastating thing for everybody. You think AEG's happy they've got 50 empty dates? They're not going to fill them this year.

KING: The family also, father Joe and sister Latoya, have suggested foul play. Here's what Joe Jackson told me in July. Watch.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KING: Do you frankly think that drugs were involved in your son's life?

JOE JACKSON, FATHER OF MICHAEL JACKSON: Something happened there, Larry. It wasn't only drugs. There's something else behind all of that.

KING: What do you mean? Where is -- what are you thinking?

JACKSON: Well, I'm thinking that there's foul play.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: Frank?

DILEO: Listen, something happened to Michael Jackson. We really don't know until the toxicology reports.

KING: We don't know at all. DILEO: We don't know at all. We weren't in the room. No one was sent up there to do any harm to Michael that we know of. I'm not sure what he's talking about. Did the doctor make a mistake? I don't know. You know, that has to come out.

KING: You don't think there was some plot?

DILEO: No. Absolutely not.

KING: Did you know about Michael's drug problem?

DILEO: I knew about it in the past. I didn't know if anything was going on now and I still don't. Because you have to remember something, to get the Lloyds of London to give you an insurance policy, you have to pass an exam. It was a four-hour exam with an outside doctor that they picked. They sent the doctor from New York. They examined him.

KING: They did that at the home?

DILEO: They did it somewhere. I wasn't here for that, but they have the results. They're not allowed to give them to anybody. But they said he was in great health. Now, you know, I asked them. I asked them in March, are you doing anything? He got a dig. Why would you ask me that? I said I want to be sure --

KING: What do you make of the doctor in the house full-time, Diprivan, stories like that?

DILEO: I never heard of Diprivan until I heard it on your show, to be honest with you. And I didn't know the doctor was staying overnight. Because at the end of the night, he went to his house, I went to my residence.

KING: Back with more of Frank Delco. We certainly thank him for being with us tonight. Clearing up some things. Back in 60 seconds.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: We're back. Were you going to go on the tour?

DILEO: Yes.

KING: As manager, you'd have to go.

DILEO: Absolutely. I was going for eight months.

KING: Do you know if Dr. Murray was going to go?

DILEO: Yes, Michael wanted Dr. Murray to go. When I came in March, he said, Frank, make sure they get a doctor for us.

KING: Didn't you question that?

DILEO: I said, why do you need a doctor? He said because after the shows I want to make sure that I get the right fluids, you know, and I eat right, and I want somebody to help my health.

KING: Do you know Dr. Murray?

DILEO: No, I never met him until one day we had a meeting.

KING: For the record, by the way, a spokesman for Dr. Murray has told us previously we're not going to respond to any statements made by the Jackson family or anyone else at this time. Dr. Murray continues to cooperate with Los Angeles investigators in their efforts to determine the cause of Michael Jackson's death.

What do you make of raiding his house, though?

DILEO: Well, I'm sure they should have done it. The cops should find out. I'm curious too. But to this -- this communication here is that -- that was Michael's doctor. AEG, we asked AEG to pay for it while we were in Europe. He didn't even have a contract. He's never gotten a check.

KING: AEG was going to pay the doctor?

DILEO: Well, they were going to give the advance. It would be an advance against Michael's earnings, because Michael demanded that. It wasn't like he was on AEG's payroll. But there was the contract was being negotiated. He wasn't --

KING: While you were his manager, did you ever feel the sense to have to warn him about medications and stuff?

DILEO: No, because in the first time there wasn't any.

KING: In '84?

DILEO: Right.

KING: We'll be right back with Frank DeLeo and my good friend Jim Moret will join us, as well. We thank Frank for being with us tonight. We've been waiting for this for a long time, Frank.

DILEO: Thank you.

KING: Don't go away.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(NEWS BREAK)

KING: Frank DiLeo is our special guest with us tonight, exclusive with us. Michael Jackson's manager; he worked for Michael from '84 through '89 and was rehired earlier this year. Joining us now, a man atop this case from the get go, Jim Moret. He's chief correspondent for "Inside Edition." He also on many occasions has hosted this program. Has Frank DiLeo impressed you tonight?

JIM MORET, "INSIDE EDITION": Yes, he has. He's really done a good job of explaining what happened that day. We never really got inside.

Frank, we just discovered, had to break the news to Michael's children, to his mother.

He also said something interesting earlier, that Katherine can work with the executors, opening the door to perhaps a deal to be worked out. There is no question that the two administrators are very well qualified to do this job. They guided Michael Jackson's career.

I talked to one biographer of Michael Jackson today and said -- he said, without John Branca, there wouldn't even be an estate to deal with. That is how good these people are.

KING: Do you think they will work it out, Frank?

DILEO: Very optimistic. Mrs. Jackson is very level headed. Our attorneys are very level headed. There will be a resolution.

KING: Was Michael difficult to manage?

DILEO: No.

KING: All talent has some quirks.

DILEO: They all have some quirks. But Michael was great to manage. He would have a wild idea and I would have maybe a different idea. He would be like Steven Spielberg and I'm Martin Scorcesi. In some way we would blend and then it would work out. He used to laugh about that. He enjoyed that.

KING: How did you feel during the accusation period, with little boys and that story?

DILEO: I know that's not true.

KING: Know it?

DILEO: I know it. I know Michael. I know what he felt about people. He was a kind soul that wouldn't touch or harm a child. In that first one, I told him to fight it. If he was alive today, he would tell you. He told -- Frank DiLeo told me to fight it. I should have listen to him.

When the second time came around, I knew he was innocent. I knew what happened. The people were moochers.

KING: Jim, has that gone away?

MORET: The allegations.

KING: The story itself sort of faded.

MORET: I think that what we're seeing when you hear people like Frank talk, and you hear from Brooke Shields, you hear from his own daughter at the memorial -- we are seeing a different side of Michael Jackson. We clearly saw him as a strange guy, odd. He was odd. But he was very talented and we are seeing more of a human side to him.

DILEO: Sometimes odd can be confused with he was a great marketer of himself. You should look at it from that point of view.

MORET: He was unusual.

DILEO: He knew what he was doing, and he knew what would cause publicity.

KING: He did?

DILEO: I think so.

KING: In the Madonna vein, knowing how to sell tickets.

DILEO: Absolutely. I learned a lot of things from Michael.

KING: Was he a -- some people say a terrific businessman.

DILEO: He was very smart. When you get back to the number of shows; Michael Jackson knew that if you spent 27 million dollars to create a stage and a production, ten shows weren't going to cover it.

MORET: To that point, Michael Jackson knew there were 31 shows originally. AEG told me there were 31 shows. They rolled out the first ten. They said this is going so well, we've got to add more. They agreed to 19 more. That is how they got to 50.

KING: We'll be back with more right after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: We're back with Michael Jackson's manager Frank DiLeo, in our exclusive appearance. Jim Moret, chief correspondent of "Inside Edition." What can you tell us about a meeting at the Beverly Hills Hotel, attended by Michael and his father Joe, before the concert tour? What was that all about?

DILEO: Here is what happened. That was the one day I happened to be out of town. Joseph wanted to have a meeting with Leonard Rowe, Michael, Randy Phillips and me, and Paul Gumbaway (ph). Katherine came to the meeting. It was at the Beverly Hills Hotel in a bungalow.

They got there early. Michael stayed in his car until Randy and Paul came. I was out of town. They went in. They had a meeting. Joe asked all these questions, him and Leonard. Randy answered them.

KING: You heard all this from Randy?

DILEO: I heard it from Michael.

KING: Oh.

DILEO: OK. This is May 15th. That is a Friday. I get back Sunday or Monday. Michael says, we have to get rid of Rowe. I said OK. He tells me everything that happened. May 20th -- KING: That letter went out.

DILEO: That letter went out and he received it.

KING: He said he didn't.

DILEO: I know he did. He got it. He also said that that meeting was three weeks before Michael died and that's not true. His timeline is way off.

KING: So Michael was kicked after that meeting?

DILEO: He forgot that he signed it. He signed it under pressure. But he forgot to send a letter out earlier. When they had the meeting and he saw how they acted, he said, Frank, we forgot. We have to remove Leonard. I said OK.

KING: Is this ever going to go away, Jim?

MORET: Not for a while. The criminal aspect --

KING: Where is that going?

MORET: Well, you know, with Anna Nicole, you didn't see charges for more than a year after she died. I think you may see a similar situation here. The attorney general is involved. The DEA is involved, the LAPD. It could take months before we see criminal charges.

KING: Anything you want to ask Frank?

DILEO: I'm just curious why it is that there seems to be these two camps between the family and the management? It seems like you all have the same interests at heart, really that's to grow what is now an estate.

DILEO: Right. It's not as big as people make it out to be. But the one thing you have to remember, Michael liked to have his business separate from his family. He didn't like his family interfering in his business.

KING: Really? Any of the family?

DILEO: Any of the family. Now, he did put Katherine as a trustee on certain things, because he trusted her. He didn't want them knowing what he was doing.

KING: Wasn't he close with his brothers and sisters?

DILEO: They are close as brothers and sisters. That has nothing to do with business. You could be close with your brother. You don't want him to looking at your contract.

KING: Do you think Michael's kids are going to go in business?

DILEO: I think they are very talented. KING: They've got good genes, right?

DILEO: Absolutely. They are very well mannered. They're very polite. They are very smart. I wish I could read as good as they do.

KING: Any idea where he is going to be buried?

DILEO: No.

KING: Why the mystery?

MORET: The mystery, because the toxicology report is not done and that brain tissue has not been released back to the family. They can't really bury him until he is whole. Simple as that. I think there is still a division in the family between Neverland and somewhere else.

KING: Yes. That's going to go on.

MORET: That's going to go on.

KING: Ad infinitum, Frank. Are you now back to being retired?

DILEO: No. I'm not going to stay retired very long.

KING: Thank so much for being with us. Thank you, Jim. Frank DiLeo, Michael Jackson's manager and Jim Moret.

On last night's show, Griffin O'Neal alleged that Alana Stewart sold Farrah Fawcett's things on eBay on the day of Fawcett's death. We were contacted by Stewart's lawyer, Howard Wiseman today, who told us the allegation is categorically false, and went on to say that as far as Griffin is implying that there was or is an inappropriate romantic relationship between Alana Stewart and Ryan O'Neal, that is absolutely false, as well as an unconscionable fabrication. That is a quote from Howard Wiseman.

And before we go on, our good friend Bob Barker has written a blog, exclusive for us, about his number one cause, animal welfare. He is calling attention to a situation involving some captive bears. You'll want to read this. Go to CNN.com/LarryKing.

Right now it is Erica Hill and "AC 360." Erica?

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0908/04/lkl.01.html

Interview with Jermaine Jackson

Aired August 7, 2009 - 21:00 ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


LARRY KING, CNN ANCHOR: Tonight, Jermaine Jackson sharing his private pain about his brother Michael.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JERMAINE JACKSON, BROTHER OF MICHAEL JACKSON: I feel his presence all the time.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: Who does he blame for the pop star's death?

And if Jermaine had one last chance to talk to Michael brother to brother, what might he say?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

J. JACKSON: I miss you.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: Jermaine Jackson setting the record straight on drugs, family drama and maybe who's the daddy, next on LARRY KING LIVE.

It's a great pleasure to welcome to Larry King Live -- one of the many visits he's made to this program -- Jermaine Jackson, one of Michael Jackson's older brothers, the former member of the Jackson Five. He sang co-lead with Michael for a number of years.

And, by the way, Jermaine has contributed a blog about Michael's humanitarian work. It's on our website at cnn.com/larryking.

And at the end of the program tonight, in the last segment, we're going to have very special announcement, which should be of interest to our interest to our viewers around the world.

Jermaine was last with us when we were on location at Neverland. At that time, you said you were still in deep shock.

Has it now all set in?

J. JACKSON: Pretty much, but it's still a shock. It will always be a shock.

KING: Are there ever moments -- I know you -- I how close you were -- where you feel his presence? J. JACKSON: I feel his presence all of the time, because there is a time in the morning when it's like just about, what, dawn, or -- and it's -- the lights are still on, this -- the lights in the city. And you can see the sun coming up over the mountains. And it's a special time for me to go out. And I just talk to the sky and I talk to (INAUDIBLE)...

KING: Do you talk to Michael?

J. JACKSON: I just say things to Michael, wherever you are, I'm trying to talk to you.

Do you hear me?

I mean, I miss you. And it's such a beautiful time in the morning, because it's quiet and very still.

KING: It's the best time of day.

J. JACKSON: Yes.

KING: Yes, it is.

J. JACKSON: It goes fast, though.

KING: Smokey Robinson said the seemingly endless media coverage has made the mourning process harder for him.

What do you make of the fact that the story never ends?

J. JACKSON: Well, it's -- it's a great loss to the world and -- and especially to me and my family and -- and I guess people realize this was a great person, a great humanitarian, besides the entertainment part. He's just a wonderful person.

KING: So the fact that it's in the papers every day and on television every night, it becomes -- you're not upset by it?

J. JACKSON: Well, Larry...

KING: You understand it?

J. JACKSON: Yes, yes. Well, not that I understand a lot of things they say, because I hate that Jacko crap. They need to stop that. But it's just getting the facts. They need to know the facts, because everybody is saying things and they're selling papers and they're doing business, but there are facts. And that's the (INAUDIBLE).

KING: We'll get to some tonight.

J. JACKSON: Sure.

KING: What about the plans -- any plans -- for laying Michael to rest?

Many people are interested in that.

J. JACKSON: I am very much, also.

KING: Who decides it?

J. JACKSON: My mother. And I guess I want him at Neverland. And there's a question -- there's a question, but still...

KING: And can't you -- she's your mother. So can't you say, hey mom, I want...

J. JACKSON: I'm not the only one, Larry. There's -- there's like so many.

KING: What does your mother say?

Does she give you any hint?

J. JACKSON: Well, she's -- she's thinking about -- see, I'm most concerned about security and him being secure in a peaceful setting.

KING: So if he had a public place...

J. JACKSON: And she has...

KING: ...it would be like having a Presley, initially. They had to move Presley's body to Graceland.

J. JACKSON: Yes, yes. I'm most concerned about that. But at the end of the day, she'll make the final decision.

KING: Was it true that Michael was unhappy at the end about Neverland, he didn't want to go there anymore?

J. JACKSON: Well, during the trial -- what -- what they put him through with -- with the trial -- he wasn't happy with how they raided his home and this and that. And plus he had bitter feelings. But when -- you were there. You saw how peaceful it was and how beautiful...

KING: I can -- I cannot imagine someone not wanting to go there.

J. JACKSON: Yes, it's -- it's peaceful.

KING: Once he's buried -- we have a -- this came from an e-mail: "Once Michael is buried, how would you and your family feel about the many admirers visiting the grave to pay respects?"

Now, how do you draw that balance between making it a little obscene and still a good sense of mourning?

J. JACKSON: Well, the fans played a very important part in his life and I feel that they -- they should have a chance to go and sort of pay a visit to him without it being too crazy. But at the same time, they are the reason why he did what he did, his performance and on the level he was, because he was giving it all back to the fans. And I just felt during the memorial, it was wonderful, but it was so scaled down. And I feel that the fans were -- they still didn't get anything.

KING: Really?

J. JACKSON: No.

KING: You were disappointed in the memorial?

J. JACKSON: No, not disappointed in -- in the memorial, just the fact that the fans weren't able to come.

KING: Touch him?

J. JACKSON: Yes, to touch and feel and be a part.

KING: Michael's daughter, Paris -- it's a scene we'll all remember -- touched hearts. She spoke about her dad at the memorial service.

Let's watch a little and get your thought.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PARIS JACKSON: I just want to say...

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Speak louder. Speak up. (INAUDIBLE).

PARIS JACKSON: Ever since I was born, daddy has been the best father you could ever imagine. And I just want to say I love him so much.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: I was there. You were, of course, standing right there.

What -- what did you feel -- that was not planned, right?

J. JACKSON: No. We...

KING: How did you feel during that moment?

J. JACKSON: Well, she said it all. All the names they called him, a lot of things they said about him for so many years and she steps up and says, daddy. He was a father. He was a wonderful father. And he was a great human being. And she said it all. It wasn't planned.

KING: How are they doing?

J. JACKSON: They're -- they're doing fine. They're -- they're slowly, but they're playing with my kids and they're -- they're coming back strong. But they're -- they're doing fine.

KING: Are they going in public?

They're not going out yet anywhere, are they?

J. JACKSON: A little bit. They go to the movies to see "Ice Age" and...

KING: Oh, they do get that...

J. JACKSON: ...and things like that...

KING: ...at least.

J. JACKSON: Yes. And, yes.

KING: Well, that's good.

Do you -- before the -- the public service, there was a private memorial.

I know that's private, but can you tell us anything about what that was like?

J. JACKSON: Well, my family felt that us being raised Jehovah's Witnesses, it was very important to have something private for the family. And my cousin, Wendell Hawkins, Wendell, he -- he spoke. He's an elder. And he spoke very nicely. And -- so we had just a private moment. And it was Paris' request to play "Gone Too Soon." And so, then we left there and came over to the Staples.

KING: Were you able to see Michael after his death?

J. JACKSON: Yes. Yes, I did. I -- I raced across town. I first got the word from you guys that there was something going on with him being -- going to the -- the hospital. So I called my mother immediately. And then I -- she said yes, she was on her way.

I was in Azusa, on the other side of Pasadena. It had been 45 minutes went by and I spoke to my sister, Janet. I spoke to Joel Katz, out attorney. And the next thing I knew, I called my mother back and I heard this tone in her voice saying, he's dead. And she was crying.

And I just cried and drove across town very quickly. It didn't...

KING: But you got to see him?

J. JACKSON: Yes. I -- I came to UCLA and I saw all of those helicopters flying in the sky and everything. And first when I walked in -- into the hospital, I went straight to my mother, caressed her. And then I went to the room and saw him just lifeless. And it just tore my heart out.

KING: Jermaine, by the way, has something special to show us. It's from the memorial service.

And a special announcement at the end of the show tonight, too.

That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(MUSIC)

KING: What's it like for you to look at that...

J. JACKSON: Wow! That's...

KING: ...recording?

J. JACKSON: That's touching, Larry, because that song, "With A Child's Heart," says a lot how just innocent children are. And that's what he was about. It's tough.

KING: The single gloves you and the others wore at the public memorial, whose idea was that?

We've got one here.

J. JACKSON: Yes. This was my idea to sort of -- this is what he was about. This was the glove. When he -- when he put this on, he was ready for the stage. He was ready to just kill 'em.

KING: How did he get that idea?

J. JACKSON: I have -- I have no idea. But this is -- this is -- it's been him for years. It's just the one glove and he was ready for battle, whatever you call it.

KING: Wow! They're beautiful gloves.

And it was only one glove, right?

He wouldn't -- he didn't wear two gloves?

J. JACKSON: One. One.

KING: Very effective.

The last time you said -- you were on the show, you -- you said his wishes would be carried out exactly, that you wanted your mother to get custody and did you -- were you happy with the way all this has apparently been resolved?

J. JACKSON: Yes, Larry, the -- there are -- well, Joel -- Joel Katz is the co-counsel and John Branca and also John MacLean (ph). These are people that we've known for many, many years. And they're doing an incredible job. They've raised a lot of money -- close to $100 million -- for the estate. They're following out Michael's wishes accordingly.

And I just said, and I'll say it again, anyone that's trying to contest the will is going against Michael's wishes.

KING: So they -- the judge said, though, that they -- they will have power for another 60 days.

And do you think it's all going to get together with your mother and them?

J. JACKSON: Yes. Well -- well, they're -- they're staying in close communication with my -- my mother. But -- but, again, I feel good because I've known Joel Katz for 30 years and he's a very standup guy. And he's doing a great job.

KING: And Branca, as well, now, as well?

J. JACKSON: Branca, yes. Yes.

KING: Your father filed a declaration that although he has a close relationship, he wants to visit the kids, he's not going to be involved in raising them.

Is that because of his age?

J. JACKSON: He's probably tired because he's raised us and he's had a tough job. No, but he's -- he's -- he has an aura about him that is really very respectful. I mean...

KING: Does he get a bad rap?

J. JACKSON: He gets a bad rap.

KING: Why?

J. JACKSON: I mean he gets a bad rap...

KING: He brings a little on himself, right?

I mean he sometimes...

J. JACKSON: But...

KING: ...gets carried away.

J. JACKSON: Yes, but -- but that's his way of expressing him -- himself. But we owe it all to him, because if he wasn't the way he was, Larry, we wouldn't be the way we were and turn out to...

KING: Was he a tough father?

J. JACKSON: No, he was just the way fathers were during -- during that time. They were very concerned about their kids growing up to be strong and straight. And there was so many bad influences out during that time, so...

KING: Yes.

J. JACKSON: No, my -- my father has been great.

KING: He's spoken of the possibility of Michael's kids going into show business. Do you think that could happen?

Do they have any tendencies that way?

I mean, who would know it better than you?

J. JACKSON: They love film. They love film and they love movies and they know a lot about animation. So there's a great possibility, yes.

KING: There's been a lot of speculation about whether Michael's dermatologist, as you know, Dr. Arnold Klein, might be the biological father. I asked him about that when he was a guest.

Watch this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DR. ARNIE KLEIN, MICHAEL JACKSON'S DERMATOLOGIST: I think, to the best of my knowledge, I'm not the father. But I wanted to tell you that this discussion, however, is between Michael, his children and this person (INAUDIBLE)...

KING: So you don't feel you have to take a DNA test to prove anything here?

KLEIN: If they want me to take a DNA test, they can have my DNA. I don't care at this point.

KING: You would.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: He asked in court, through his lawyer, to be involved somehow in all of this and the court refused.

What do you make of the Klein factor?

J. JACKSON: Well, I really don't know that much about it. But you -- you can look at the kids and -- and tell that they're Michael's kids. And -- and -- and the fact that people come forth and they say things just -- just to get attention. But those are definitely Michael's children.

KING: Do you know Dr. Klein?

J. JACKSON: I really don't know him, but I've heard so many things. And I wouldn't like to say something that I really don't know that much about, because there's been so much speculation around this whole thing. And I don't want to be one to contribute to that.

KING: I understand.

Do you think it's a good idea that Deborah Rowe is going to get some visitation? J. JACKSON: Absolutely. She's -- she's -- I've spoken to her. But we talk about horses because she has a ranch and I've had a ranch before.

But, yes, I think it's perfect. It's wonderful.

KING: We'll be right back with more of Jermaine Jackson.

Don't go away.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MICHAEL JACKSON, MUSICIAN: Why don't you send that to Paris?

UNIDENTIFIED CHILD: OK.

PARIS JACKSON: Daddy?

M. JACKSON: Yes?

PARIS JACKSON: I have -- thank you for giving me ice cream. You're the best daddy in the whole world and I love you.

M. JACKSON: Come on.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, COURTESY WORLD AWARDS MEDIA, JULY 24, 2009)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A man with a golden heart, Michael Jackson.

J. JACKSON: Thank you very much.

This is a special moment for Michael, a special moment for his legacy. It's a special award.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: If you've been wondering about this gold piece on the set -- why don't we flash away -- it's obviously Rodin's "The Thinker." But it says "Save the World Awards. Jermaine Jackson on behalf of Michael Jackson."

What's the story of this?

J. JACKSON: Well, this was a -- a special award that was given to Michael from Vienna, Austria and it was put on by the World Award Media. And they did an incredible job of just honoring him and everybody (INAUDIBLE)...

KING: So he was going to get it and you went to get it for him?

J. JACKSON: Yes. They honored you, I think, in 2002.

KING: They did, yes.

J. JACKSON: Yes. And then they did Michael in 2003.

KING: And we'll have more to say about Vienna a little later.

J. JACKSON: Yes.

KING: But this is beautiful.

Where do you keep this?

J. JACKSON: Well, this is so heavy, Larry, I -- I...

KING: Oh.

J. JACKSON: It's -- it's -- it's very heavy. We put it some place. But it -- it has to be a strong foundation.

KING: In the water it's a hernia.

(LAUGHTER)

KING: All right, we have some special home video from several years ago of Prince, Paris and their father.

Watch this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

(CHILDREN SINGING)

MICHAEL JACKSON: I love it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: Do they talk about their father a lot?

J. JACKSON: Yes. Yes, because he was most concerned about them all the time. That -- that's why they traveled with him so much. I mean he...

KING: Yes, he took them everywhere, didn't he?

J. JACKSON: Yes. And it just...

KING: Well, we deny age in life. It's going to happen to you, Jermaine. It happens to all of us. Your mother is 79.

God forbid something happens, what would happen to the kids, do you think?

J. JACKSON: The kids will be in good hands because there's so many of us. And they...

KING: They'll be communally raised, do you think? J. JACKSON: Yes, well, we're -- well, we're going to surround them with this Jackson love, because there's so much love and -- and so many children. They're in -- they're in a wonderful setting now, because they're communicating with kids every day, which is our kids and Sheila's (ph) got kids and -- and there's so many. We -- the kids have got kids and there are just so many. And they're -- they feel so comfortable now.

KING: So you're saying that would really not be a problem?

J. JACKSON: No. Not (INAUDIBLE)...

KING: What about Janet?

We haven't seen her.

What's her involvement with the kids?

Is she close with them?

J. JACKSON: Well...

KING: How's Janet doing?

J. JACKSON: Janet's doing fine. She's -- she's busy doing her work right -- right now. And I was going through the market and saw "Janet wants the kids." And I don't think that's the case. That's just the sensationalism that's coming out there. But (INAUDIBLE) into that.

KING: Do you talk to Janet?

J. JACKSON: Yes. I -- I speak to her. She's busy doing her -- she's doing a film and she's doing her next C.D.

KING: Do you think you, the boys and her might get together for something?

Boy, would that pack them in.

J. JACKSON: On the field -- the Dodgers field. No. No. No, that could be very exciting, really.

KING: Dodgers Stadium, why not?

J. JACKSON: Yes, it could.

KING: All of you. Hey...

J. JACKSON: Yes.

KING: The ball game around you. Hey, we'll book anything.

Jermaine has, by the way, written a blog exclusive for us on Michael's legacy. Go to CNN.com/larryking to read it.

More with Jermaine after the break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MICHAEL JACKSON: (INAUDIBLE).

(SINGING)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: Did you ever see something wonderful and heartbreaking at the same time?

By the way, I -- I didn't get it clear.

Are both sisters close with the kids -- Janet...

J. JACKSON: Both sisters. Yes. Yes.

KING: They're both?

J. JACKSON: Yes, very, very much.

KING: There's lots of buzz about whether a young man named Omer Bhatti might be Michael's biological son. And your father talked about it in a recent interview.

Let's watch.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, COURTESY NEWSONE.COM)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Michael may have had another child. Omer is his name.

Do you know anything about that?

I know he was sitting right there next to -- next to Rebbie and everyone was trying to connect some dots.

Do you know that as -- as Michael's other son?

JOE JACKSON, FATHER OF MICHAEL JACKSON: Yes, I -- I knew he had another son. Yes, I did.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And he -- he looks like a Jackson.

JOE JACKSON: Oh, yes. He looks like a Jackson, he acts like a Jackson, he can dance like a Jackson.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: All right, let's hear it from Jermaine.

What do you make of Omer? He reportedly denies he is Michael's son. He was seated with the Jackson family during the Staples Center service and there are also photos from this weekend of Omer out with Prince and Blanket, as well as Jermaine's sons, Jermajesty and Jaffar.

Who is he?

J. JACKSON: I would say he's probably someone who Michael really endeared and he wanted to just -- just be a part of his life. And -- and I really don't know if he's his -- his son or not. But the fact that he's been around Michael so much -- because I've seen pictures of him dressed just like Michael with the hat and the red shirt and everything.

But if he's not his son, we're going to continue to give him love...

KING: You like him?

J. JACKSON: Yes. Yes. He

...

KING: Are you close to him?

J. JACKSON: Well, I've seen him at the house a few times. And he's very nice, very re -- respectful and that's all you can ask for, really.

KING: Were you surprised that your father seemed to think he might be?

J. JACKSON: No, be -- because I've been asked this question so much. But I really don't know. But, still, we're going to just take -- take care of him and give him the love and the support he needs.

KING: What about -- this is a Twitter question.

What about Grace, the nanny?

Is she going to be involved with the kids?

J. JACKSON: I really don't know, because right now my mother is in control of everything. And she's just making sure the children are being children and they -- they're just playing, having fun. And I think they've put all their school programs together for the coming year and stuff and are making sure that their studies are -- are right, because all that is the most important.

KING: Nannies are special people in children's lives.

J. JACKSON: Yes.

KING: And she must have been terrific, right?

J. JACKSON: Yes, but she was always there. KING: That's what I mean.

J. JACKSON: Yes. But like I say, my -- my mother is in charge.

So who knows?

KING: Tell me about your mother. Is she -- everyone who comes on this program says she's one of the greatest people they've ever known.

J. JACKSON: Well, my mother is very, very special. And I'll say this, I think I'm the closest to her that looks like her. And she's probably laughing right now. But -- but, no, she's incredible. She gave us that -- just that loving, endearment and wanting to understand people and the sharing and the -- and the kind of -- sometimes I say to myself, I wish I wasn't like that, because sometimes there are people are out in the world and they take big advantage of that.

But we all have it in us and there's nothing we can do about it.

KING: Would she do well on this show or is she shy?

J. JACKSON: She would do well because you would probably make her feel very comfortable. And...

KING: But she is shy, right?

J. JACKSON: She's very shy.

KING: Did Michael get that from her?

J. JACKSON: We all got it from her, yes.

KING: You're saying all the Jackson's are shy?

J. JACKSON: They're all shy until we hit the stage, yes.

KING: All right, explain that. I've been told that Michael would be sitting shy, not wanting to go on stage. Someone calls him up -- Bette Midler called him up, he came up, sheepishly gets up -- whack.

J. JACKSON: Well, it starts with my father saying all right, get up, this is the stage, when we were very little. So it's like rehearse, rehearse, rehearse. We feel more comfortable on stage.

And when we're in a small setting -- like if I was to come to your house and you had some guests tonight and then you asked me, Jermaine, come in and meet so and so, I'm very nervous. I'm very shy.

KING: Really?

J. JACKSON: Yes. Yes.

KING: By the way, another Twitter question -- are the children being raised as Jehovah's Witnesses? J. JACKSON: Well, they've been to the hall before and I don't know if they're going to be raised as Jehovah's Witnesses because they've had Christmases and they enjoy birth -- birthdays and stuff. So...

KING: It's not decided yet?

J. JACKSON: I don't think so. No.

KING: You don't think so?

J. JACKSON: I don't think so.

KING: The results of the autopsy have been delayed again indefinitely.

What effect is this having on Jermaine and the family?

We'll talk about it after the break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(MUSIC)

KING: How do you and the kids, before we ask you about the -- the autopsy -- deal with all this paparazzi?

I must say, the -- we'll talk about it later, because there's a special announcement coming later. But Jermaine has been at my house a few times. I walk out to get the mail and there's 14 people across the street taking pictures. Now you've got to deal with that all day long -- and the kids.

How do you deal with that?

J. JACKSON: You just ignore them, because I said to you, "Larry, duck, duck, they're -- they're coming."

KING: He tells me duck. I don't know what -- duck from what?

But I mean how -- you just get used to it?

J. JACKSON: No, but your -- your answer was funny. You said, "Why do I have to change my life for them?"

KING: Yes, why am I going to change my life to...

J. JACKSON: Yes. No, they're -- Larry, they're there. And this is all going to quiet down but...

KING: You're sure.

When?

What year?

J. JACKSON: Yes, you're right.

KING: Yes.

J. JACKSON: I don't know.

KING: All right. The rec -- the release of the official autopsy report delayed indefinitely.

J. JACKSON: Why?

KING: You don't know why? They don't tell you?

J. JACKSON: No, no.

KING: As a family member, couldn't you call the coroner and the others and say what's going on?

J. JACKSON: Yes, but I have to wait for my mother first.

KING: Boy, she really runs the show.

J. JACKSON: Yes. She's E.F. Hutton.

KING: Has she called?

J. JACKSON: Well, she's in touch very, very much. But I do know that once they're read to print the exam -- the facts, whatever they're going to be -- they're going to call her. Then they're going to come to the house.

KING: Didn't you get a family report -- autopsy for the family only?

J. JACKSON: I don't think so.

KING: No? You haven't seen an autopsy?

J. JACKSON: No, I have not seen one.

KING: Do you fear -- what about the foul play that your sister Latoya said, your father hinted at? Do you think there's a foul play as defined by doctors doing wrong?

J. JACKSON: It's hard to say because there's so much being said and I think to rush to judgment would be the wrong thing to do or say. I think there's an ongoing investigation and to say these things is not -- without knowing the facts. But if it ends up to foul play, then that will be dealt with accordingly. But at the same time, we really don't know, but we will know. We'll find out.

KING: Did you know or have knowledge of Michael being addicted to anything?

J. JACKSON: No, just like I said.

KING: You never discussed it. J. JACKSON: I've never seen him act abnormal around me or never known anything like that.

KING: Did you ever ask him about it?

J. JACKSON: No, because he would never --

KING: Why not?

J. JACKSON: That never came to my mind.

KING: So then all of this is a shock to you?

J. JACKSON: Yes. I heard during the Pepsi commercial there was some things that he was taking during that time because the --

KING: Hair.

J. JACKSON: -- the hair thing. But no, I never had any reason to ask him that.

KING: But now when you learn all this, and people report about medication found in the house, are you surprised?

J. JACKSON: I'm very surprised and very uneducated about all these pills and all these things. Like I told you before, I like it that way. But really not to have much knowledge about these type of things, but at the same time I'm hearing all this stuff and seeing where it's going.

But I'll tell you, if there was anything administered in my brother's body that was not in the proper setting, meaning a hospital, then that will be dealt with.

KING: But you never thought of -- I mean aren't you curious about it as a brother? Would it bug you if the doctor were giving him drugs indiscriminately?

J. JACKSON: Yes, absolutely. Absolutely, because I'm one that won't even take an aspirin. And to hear these things is just shocking to me as his death.

KING: Do you know his doctor?

J. JACKSON: No.

KING: Never met the doctor?

J. JACKSON: Never met him until he was in the hospital.

KING: Well in the past there's been a lot said about Dr. Murray, but you don't draw any conclusions, right?

J. JACKSON: I don't like to draw conclusions until you get the facts. KING: All right. By the way, we received a statement from Dr. Murray concerning all the mentions of him, not by Jermaine, and he says "we're not going to respond to any statements made by any family member or anyone else at this time. Dr. Murray continues to cooperate with Los Angeles investigators in their efforts to determine the cause of Michael Jackson's death."

And I guess you support them too -- I mean the investigators?

J. JACKSON: Yes.

KING: You want to know. I mean, you don't want to go without answers.

J. JACKSON: Right, let them do their job.

KING: But at this point you don't blame anybody.

J. JACKSON: I'm not blaming anybody until the facts are there and how can I blame them. Once the facts are there and then probably I guess we'll go into what they call a trial or whatever and it would be what it is.

KING: You think, knowing Michael as you did, that he'd want someone punished, if that came out?

J. JACKSON: If this came out, it would be tough for anybody who had anything to do with Michael passing to walk this Earth really.

KING: So, you couldn't know if the family was planning anything because they didn't know if he had a problem, right? You didn't know if he had a problem?

J. JACKSON: No, no.

KING: What has surprised Jermaine most about all of this since the death? We'll ask that next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(SINGING) KING: A great performance and a great song that Michael used to sing -- the great Charlie Chaplin song. How did you feel standing up there doing that?

J. JACKSON: Wow, that was a moment. That was very, very tough, but I wanted to do it for him because it was one of my favorite songs as well.

KING: A great song.

J. JACKSON: Yes.

KING: What about the concert tour? Were you going to go on it, by the way?

J. JACKSON: Yes, yes. Well, the show -- you're talking about the show since the '02?

KING: Yes.

J. JACKSON: Yes, see there has been so much talk about that he was pressured by how many shows he was doing, and all this kind of stuff and, Larry, it's really just speculation and people talking. The facts are --

KING: What did he tell you?

J. JACKSON: Well, put it like this, it's not what he told me. AG, Randy Phillips and them did an incredible job at just making Michael's vision a reality. Michael creates and he wants this stage and he wants this and that. And they brought it to the forefront, where he was able to present to the world. It was the first time 3D was going to be worked into a concert and song.

And I feel that they did an incredible job at just working with him. It started out with 31 shows. They put ten up. They went so quickly that they went back to Michael and said these 31 are going to go so fast, do you want to add more. And Michael said yes, considering certain conditions.

Now, if those 50 shows were designed over nine months, two shows a week. So he can take off any time he wanted to.

KING: So people were talking like they were in seven shows a week.

J. JACKSON: No, it was two shows a week over a nine month period, but they did a great job, AG.

KING: What did you make of that final rehearsal? Last time you were here, it was reported there were hours of footage, there's other footage, concert rehearsals that's all going to be released. Is that true?

J. JACKSON: Yes, yes. That's all put into a sort of documentary film type of deal and that was --

KING: It's going to be shown in theaters, right?

J. JACKSON: Yes.

KING: Not television, theaters.

J. JACKSON: Yes, theaters.

KING: We have a Twitter question. Did Michael embrace Islam before he died? Do you know if he became a Muslim?

J. JACKSON: Well, I'm one. But Michael -- I would bring him books and he did a lot of reading because he reads everything.

KING: But did you perform "Smile" at this Australian awards?

J. JACKSON: Yes. Yes, I did.

(SINGING)

KING: You're going to start making that your song, huh?

J. JACKSON: No. No. But what it was, they asked me to sing it. If I'm going to accept the award, I have to sing that song. And so I think my kids were there holding the umbrella as it was raining --

KING: Oh.

J. JACKSON: -- so I would sing it.

KING: It was outdoors?

J. JACKSON: Yes.

KING: Did -- in the months since the death, have you learned anything about your brother that surprised you?

J. JACKSON: I -- I learned how people really didn't realize the type of human being he was and -- and how they had a misunderstanding about him --

KING: All that conception about young boys seems to have gone away.

J. JACKSON: Because there was never no truth to -- to that --

KING: Did you ever think there was anything to --

J. JACKSON: I'll tell you something, we know the facts, because I know my brother. And they took something that was so wonderful. You've been to Neverland. That was designed for children who were less fortunate, with wheel chairs, or who were terminally ill. And so for them to take that -- meaning the media -- and make it just a horrible place -- I mean you were there.

KING: What did all that do to Michael, though, those stories?

J. JACKSON: It -- it hurts because he's a human being and -- and he -- he had to say, out -- how much more do I have to give?

I mean he's a great humanitarian and as well as just a great entertainer. He's a bigger humanitarian. He's done so much. I mean people who needed liver transplants, he would pay for them. He would do all sorts of things. I mean he was in the hospital in -- in Israel and he'd walk the floor and he'd find out well, who needs what. And he's paying for things.

This guy was incredible. He was --

KING: If Jermaine could speak to Michael one last time, what do you think he would say?

We'll ask him in 60 seconds. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: You described earlier, Jermaine, how you get up in the morning and go out and kind of commune, in a sense, think things. And we have a Twitter question that says: "Do you feel Michael's presence in spirit?"

J. JACKSON: I feel his presence in -- in the spirit all the time. We -- we're all given a certain time on this Earth and -- and it's our duty to try to be the best human beings we can be to ourselves and to others. And I feel that Michael did all of that. I feel that he's has a lot of good deeds, incredible deeds.

And that's all you -- you can do, is when you're going to take these deeds with you. I know my brother is in a very wonderful, peaceful place because of his actions. He took advantage of a -- of what God wanted him to do, make people happy. Take your success and give to those who didn't have.

KING: You believe in God?

J. JACKSON: Yes, I do.

KING: Do you get a little angry at him for taking Michael so young?

J. JACKSON: I don't get angry at God because God put him here, and God has his time to say when he wants him back. And Michael did what he needed to do here during the time that he was on Earth.

True, he didn't have to go so soon, because there was so much more to do. But I do know he took a lot of good deeds with -- with him. And he's in heaven.

KING: Speaking of that, Michael Jackson did so many things for others; Jermaine wants to see that good work continue. Read about it on our blog only at CNN.com/LarryKing.

One more section with Jermaine and then a surprise will join us in the last segment with a special announcement.

Don't go away.

(NEWS BREAK)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(MUSIC)

KING: We've got a lot of questions in this one area -- Twitters, voice-mails, anything.

What's your favorite Michael Jackson song?

J. JACKSON: My favorite Michael Jackson song is "Earth Song."

(SINGING)

J. JACKSON: Because it's him acknowledging how our world is deteriorating and that's what he was most concerned about. We've got to save the planet, we've got to save the Earth. And he just didn't say it, he put it in a song. He put it in actions way before the Al Gore's of global warming and way before all of this.

And he was most concerned about --

KING: He was ahead of his time?

J. JACKSON: Yes, he was -- he -- he was a voice for those who could not be heard.

KING: They tell stories how Sinatra -- Frank Sinatra would see a sad story on television and send money to the victims of that sad story.

Is he -- was he -- did he do things like that?

J. JACKSON: Michael would go.

KING: Go?

J. JACKSON: -- and be there and touch and feel, besides giving money and paying for the operations. If there was a child who was all green from just a liver -- she needed a liver transplant and Michael stepped up and took care of it. I hear so many stories like this. And that makes me feel good.

You know why?

Because he was raised the right way and he took his success and he just didn't care about material things, because none of that is with him right now. He took all the good deeds with him.

KING: There's been a buzz about a possible Jackson family reunion. We touched on it earlier. You, Janet, your brothers, a musical tribute. What's the word? Are you all going to get together?

J. JACKSON: It's -- there's been some talk. But right now, we're just making sure that things are fine with the estate and making sure that we finish just getting things back in perspective, because it's very tough.

KING: Somebody wants to know if you've heard from Elizabeth Taylor.

J. JACKSON: I haven't, but I'm pretty sure my parents have, yes.

KING: What's your best memory of having fun with Michael?

By the way, did he have a sense of humor?

J. JACKSON: Oh, yes. Michael and I and I guess all -- all the brothers, when we were back stage on the Victory Tour, we would just be so hyped, because we couldn't wait to get out there. Remember, we played Dodgers Stadium. We did like seven nights. And before we would go out on the stage, we would be just back stage throwing candy and having food fights and other kind of stuff.

And then when we'd walk out there, we would just be ready to just kill them.

KING: When you were kids and you'd look at him -- he was the youngest -- did you realize then what an amazing talent he was?

J. JACKSON: I knew he was special because he started off playing bongos, and then he just got into this James Brown thing, and started dancing and singing and -- but he was most concerned on being -- concerned about being the best at what was -- what he did. He did a lot of practice, a lot of rehearsing.

KING: He never had dance lessons, right?

J. JACKSON: No.

KING: What would you say to him if you could speak to him, one last -- if you had another moment with him?

J. JACKSON: I -- I would just -- if he was here in the flesh --

KING: Yes.

J. JACKSON: I'd -- I would just joke with him like we always did. The last time I saw him, we were singing a song together and so I said, "Michael, I love the way you did that, that song we were singing."

(SINGING)

J. JACKSON: The song was so nice. And he was -- he was singing the harmony. And so we started singing harmony together. And I said, "Michael, I loved what you did on that song."

He said, "Thank you. That means a lot coming from you."

KING: So you would sing together?

J. JACKSON: Yes.

KING: OK. Jermaine Jackson has been our guest throughout this.

Jermaine and a special announcement is next.

My wife Shawn will be here, too. Stick around.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: We're back with Jermaine Jackson and our special guest to close it out, with a surprise announcement. She is Shawn King, my wife, who is also chairman of the Larry King Cardiac Foundation. My son, Larry, Jr. is its president. She's a singer. She's worked with Jermaine.

Jermaine, you want to open with what have you got to tell us?

J. JACKSON: Well, we -- well, it started with a song first. We did "Will You Be There?," with Shawn and Damon in the studio. They did a track. And I heard her voice. It was just incredible.

So I -- they wanted me to do a verse and I just did a verse. So I asked them to be a part of an event that we were doing in Vienna, Austria in a -- in a few months, some time in September, where we're going to pay a tribute to my brother. Some of the world's greatest entertainers are going to be there.

KING: It was going to be a birthday event, right, on August 29th, but --

SHAWN KING, WIFE OF LARRY KING: It was.

L. KING: But you need more planning, right?

S. KING: We wanted to be able to make sure that everyone that wanted to be there could be there.

J. JACKSON: Exactly.

L. KING: So it's in September?

We'll announce the date. Now, let me get this straight. If you want more information about this -- and we're being seen all over the world -- the -- the charities that will benefit from this are Earth Cares and the Larry King Cardiac Foundation.

L. KING: For more information --

J. JACKSON: Larry Jones Feed the children, too.

L. KING: And what?

J. JACKSON: Larry Jones Feed The Children.

KING: And Larry Jones Feed The Children -- Feed The Children.

S. KING: Right.

J. JACKSON: Yes.

L. KING: You can check it out on the Web site called Tribute2009. That's one word -- Tribute2009.com, right?

J. JACKSON: And -- and one last point. We have a JacksonLive.tv platform that we just put together that we can stream to Blackberries and iPhones and any hookup that you can have with the Internet. We'll be able to stream it.

L. KING: Now what are you going to have at the concert? S. KING: A lot of surprises. A lot of -- we'll even have party favors for the -- for the guests.

KING: Why Vienna?

S. KING: A very special party favor.

J. JACKSON: Well, why Vienna?

Because that was a very dear place for Michael. And he -- he loved castles. And we're going to have this huge celebration in front of a castle. We're expecting hundreds of thousands of people. And we feel that that --

L. KING: Hundreds of thousands of people?

J. JACKSON: Yes.

S. KING: Hundreds. That's plural, Larry.

J. JACKSON: And we fill that this would be the proper setting. And this is something that -- and I felt all along that the fans need something, because they weren't -- they shut L.A. down, Larry. And so they -- they only let 20 some thousand into the -- the Staples.

L. KING: Now, we know about the Larry King Cardiac Foundation.

What's the Earth Care Foundation?

J. JACKSON: Earth Care is a foundation that I founded and it's basically to focus toward the alleviation of the suffering of children and just people anyplace in the world. We've worked with Larry Jones Feed The Children. We -- we have an abandoned baby center outside Nairobi.

So we do good work. And Larry Jones is for real. He's the best.

S. KING: Yes. And this is -- and because Michael cared so much about children.

J. JACKSON: Exactly.

S. KING: This is -- we felt that these were the perfect charities.

L. KING: That's a great idea.

Now, you've got a special CD coming. It includes a duet with Jermaine and Shawn. That CD will come out. The donations among those charities is the Larry King Live Cardiac Foundation.

S. KING: The Larry King Live Cardiac Foundation --

S. KING: Yes, oh, Jermaine. Oh my gosh, he did such a great job and just --

L. KING: Why --

J. JACKSON: She did --

(CROSSTALK)

L. KING: I don't get a chance to talk to you lately, so why are you doing --

S. KING: Torture me.

L. KING: Why are you doing this?

S. KING: I'm doing it --

L. KING: You, why --

S. KING: -- because I love music. I love Jermaine. I love the Jackson family. And it's just -- it -- everything has come together so beautifully, and so perfectly it -- I know it's meant to be. There's no question in my mind.

L. KING: And you'll help a lot of people, too.

S. KING: We'll help a lot of people.

J. JACKSON: Exactly.

S. KING: And we've had some mischief in the studio, too. Jermaine's vocal was erased accidentally and he thinks it was his little brother.

L. KING: You think Michael did this?

S. KING: It could have been.

L. KING: Well, you never know, because he fooled around a lot, right? He was a kidder.

L. Well, let -- let me get it straight, for more information about the concerts coming in September, they will give you the date when you contact them. It's -- it will be picked within a week.

You can check it out on the website, Tribute2009.com. Among the beneficiaries are the Feed The Children, Earth Cares and the Larry King Cardiac Foundation. And you look for that CD when it comes out, as well.

S. KING: Right.

L. KING: Congratulations to you.

Thanks for coming. You were great tonight.

J. JACKSON: Thank you.

L. KING: Shawn, nice seeing you. I'll see you around. Keep in touch, OK, yes?

OK.

S. KING: I'll do that.

KING: All right, that's it for tonight's LARRY KING LIVE.

"AC 360" starts right now.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0908/07/lkl.01.html